275 | Indigenous Food Rematriation with Bryon White
Our guest this week on the pod is Bryon White. Bryon is the Co-Founder and CEO of Yaupon Brothers Tea Company, which brings the only American-native tea to the global market and supports farmers from marginalized communities.
And a special thanks to members of the Awarepreneurs Community for sponsoring this episode!
Resources mentioned in this episode include:
Yaupon Tea & Indigenous Food Rematriation: Interview with Bryon White
NOTE: While it’s not perfect, we offer this transcription by Otter.ai for those who are hearing impaired or who don’t find listening to a podcast enjoyable or possible.
SPEAKERS
Bryon White, Paul Zelizer
Paul Zelizer 00:01
Hi, this is Paul Zelizer, and welcome to the Awarepreneurs podcast. On this show, we dive deep into wisdom from some of the world's leading social entrepreneurs. Our goal is to help you increase your positive impact your profits, and your quality of life. Before we get into today's topic, I have one request, you can hit subscribe and do a review on your favorite podcast app. It helps more people learn how to have positive impact or values based business. Thank you so much. Today, I'm thrilled to introduce you to Brian White. And our topic is Yaupon Tea & Indigenous Food Rematriation. Brian is the co founder and CEO of the pond brothers Tea Company, which brings the only American Native tea to the global market, and supports farmers from marginalized communities. Brian, welcome to the show. Hey, thank you for having me. And we were just talking before we hit record, you've had a little bit of a vengefulness in your neck of the woods, as we're recording. Tell our audience just a little bit about that. That is one way to put it. Like maybe 10 million other Floridians, on dealing with the fallout of hurricane Ian, and our entire business was impacted by that. I think in hindsight, we were we're very fortunate, could have been a lot worse for us. But it certainly was catastrophic for so many other people in Florida. Audience, please listen a little extra carefully. And if you can, although maybe it wasn't catastrophic. Brian, it certainly has had some impact on you and your business, and the farmers that you work with. So audience, let's dig in a little extra deeply on this episode, tell our friends and help them get back on their feet. We appreciate it. So Ryan, this whole topic of tea and food repatriation, and some farmers from marginalized communities. There's a lot to play with here and learn from you. If you were going to give us just a shorter version of your origin story, like how did you get interested in these topics? And what's a little bit about your professional background and interests that our audience can get a sense of where this all started?
Bryon White 02:12
Sure. Well, I think like many entrepreneurs, My professional background and my academic background are now totally irrelevant to what I do today. I'm a criminologist by training, I worked in law enforcement for more than a decade. Obviously, that didn't really work out for me. And I started doing the T business on the side while I was in law enforcement. And I've always been a plant nerd, you know, even from a very early age. And especially as it relates to native plants, eco systematics, you know, just things that occur naturally around where I was living always fascinated me from, you know, as long as I can remember. And I found out about this native plant here in Florida and throughout the southeast called yo Pong, which just happens to be the only indigenous source of caffeine in America. And I just couldn't believe that there was no commercially available product created from the yo Pong, that that there must be something wrong with it, you know, it must taste bad, or have some sort of awful problem that would prevent it from from being a successful product. And I found some YouTube videos on how to make tea. This is back in about 2011. I forced it on everybody I know. And they all loved it. So I obviously thought I was going to get rich, quick and create a successful business immediately. And of course, most people who are entrepreneurs know that that's rarely the way that it works out. But it has been an extremely fulfilling and amazing experience, bringing this this historically prevalent, plant back to the main light in the limelight, you know, creating something from it that consumers actually want to buy.
Paul Zelizer 04:05
So you mean people are actually into plants before the pandemic? That was a thing? Is that what you're saying?
Bryon White 04:09
It was a thing telling you? Yeah, I was such a nerdy kid. You know, I was always really into just the natural world, even without a deep understanding of it. I think it was just this childlike fascination. That's never really gone away. But it's certainly helped me to visualize a path forward for indigenous plants and how we can make things out of them that are interesting and beneficial to society. And without going into yet, because we're going to talk more about it in a bit, but I just want to put a pin in the map listeners. Brian, you said something really interesting. You talked about your original training, being as a criminologist and you were talking about how, after realizing that being part of a system that was putting people in jail, you know,
Paul Zelizer 05:00
wanted to find a way to help some people not being and being good, good wise. So we're gonna get to that coming attractions, listeners, I just want to put a pin there. That was a fascinating part of this story. And I just wanted to make that bridge, we're gonna get into that in a little bit. So, you know, you're coming along, your friends are like in the tea and you say, Okay, we're going to build a tea company that was you said, 2000, or you started this process 2011 ish. Is that what you were saying?
Bryon White 05:28
Yeah, yeah, around 2011.
Paul Zelizer 05:30
So give us like, what were the first couple of years like?
Bryon White 05:34
Well, they were daunting, you know, there was no commercially available yaupon product on the market, you could not buy yo Ponte anywhere, you could go to a nursery and purchase a plant and make your own or find it out in the woods or whatever. But there was no commercial, you know, consumer packaged goods available. So this meant that we had to create a supply chain from nothing. And I didn't necessarily realize how much of an undertaking that would be. But you know, we hit the ground running and our first brand was called yo pawn, Aussie t hit the market in 2012. To my knowledge is the commercial first commercially available yo pawn product in more than a century. And we had some success there but didn't know how to run a business didn't know how to create food products and ran into some vicious obstacles that necessitated the folding up of that business. And I feel like I learned a lot from that first round pass. My brother and I, Kyle, he was a co founder of that business. And we found a new partner, mentor of my brother from high school named Mark Steele pitched the idea to him and a day after closing down our first business, we started to pawn brothers, and he slid us a little check across the table. And that's what got the whole thing started. And ever since then, this is now 2015. We went from a very small niche brand, to a fairly commercially available brand, which you can find in retailers like Whole Foods Market, and Walmart. And we're available all throughout the United States and even abroad. And we co founded a nonprofit business league called the American yo pawn Association, which sort of consolidated this small industry into one effort, sort of like the Got Milk of yo pawn. And several producers are members of that enterprise. And, you know, it's really hit the ground running like it's become a little bit of a trend, people are searching it out. We're selling 10s of 1000s of units a month. So it's really turned into a very small mom and pop shop into a rapidly scaling business that employs 25 people.
Paul Zelizer 08:01
And so 2015, you kind of rebooted and had a little more legs under you in terms of business, got some mentoring and got some capital, like, what was it like? We don't have as many Can I quote? Another thing we were talking about before we hit record, we were talking about tech owners, right? Yeah, yeah. How? To tech owners, right? In other words, listeners, like how much of the impact space and and I'm a, you know, scout for climate businesses and climate techs. This is not to say there's anything wrong with those businesses. But there's an overemphasis of white male run tech businesses, especially those who have access to privileged networks. Like maybe you went to Harvard Business School or Stanford Business School, that's who's mostly getting funded. That's who's getting celebrated in popular entrepreneur culture, whether it's on Entrepreneur Magazine, or you know, even in the climate space, right, that's who's winding up and a lot of podcasts, etc. And here you are growing tea.
Bryon White 09:11
Very low tech.
Paul Zelizer 09:12
Did you ever not attack Boehner? Right, this is very low tech, and it's a food business. And not only are you like trying to figure out how to run a business, but like you have to figure out how to grow the tea, because the supply isn't there. So there's a lot going on here and I really celebrate your that that's a that's a lot to juggle there. And listeners, I just want to help you understand part of the reason I was excited to amplify this is there's so many layers here on every level of Yeah, from like, people weren't familiar with the products. You had to develop the market. You had to work on supply. You had to learn how to grow a business because you don't have an MBA or criminologist, right? Like there's so much going on here. And I think a lot of our listeners might be shaking their head saying yeah, like my original training is in community mental health, not and anything to do with business? So yeah, like I relate, and I think a lot of our listeners relate. So anything you could say about yourself and also your leadership team, you and your brother, like, what did you all learn during that process of so many balls in the air? And what would you give as a suggestion? Or any tips to our listeners who, you know, didn't take a linear path and maybe didn't come from Stanford Business School?
Bryon White 10:25
Yeah, but that's a great question. I think we're very, very lucky to have an uncommon amount of talent in our organization. So my brother and I started the business with Mark Steele, who was a US Air Force fighter pilot and been a Delta Airlines captain for a long time, I think over 30 years. And he was just a very generous while is still a very generous guy who can fix literally anything. So he was a great partner at the outset, because he was able to create equipment for us that didn't exist or help us build things that we needed to create our business. And just also had a really level head and wasn't scared of big, audacious goals, which I think is super important. You know, business culture in America is risk averse, you know, financiers are risk adverse, you can't be risk adverse and be a founder and be an entrepreneur, it doesn't reward you. So I think having a team that recognizes the need to have audacious goals and act on them, is super, super imperative. Also, you know, his mark Steele's daughter, Shelly steel is our COO, and she came from corporate America, you why Charles Schwab was able to provide a lot of the rigor and discipline, that that I think all businesses eventually need to adopt around, you know, their numbers and their culture and their understanding their cost. And it's been very hard for me to to grasp that, because I'm a very visual thinker. And looking at an Excel spreadsheet just like makes my brain itch, you know, it's not what I want to do. But you have to force yourself to do it sometimes. So I think we, we've learned so much that it's hard for me to encapsulate it in just a short paragraph. But if I could walk away with anything, I would say, don't be afraid to take big risks, as long as they're calculated, really, really work on your culture, you know, the culture of an organization is so important, because it can so easily become toxic. And you know, we've been through issues of that I think every organization goes through pathological cycles, and you learn from them and work on not letting it happen again. Another thing is, it's so incredibly difficult to build a business these days that can scale rapidly, especially if you're vertically integrated. And that's what we always wanted to be is a vertically integrated business where we controlled our own value chain, and the screwed up rules of the American food system don't apply to us. But what that means is that our business is very operationally intense. And there's a ton of moving parts, you know, so it's really difficult. I think starting a business and bring it to scale is always difficult. And so many founders underestimate, the level of difficulty that they're going to encounter. And so I would recommend that you just don't underestimate that, understand that it is going to be the hardest thing you ever do. And embrace that embrace the suck is what I like to say. And just power through it. And those are the people I think that are met with success. And one day when I'm met with success, I will let you know. But I feel like we've made really good progress on getting this product out to market and getting the supply chain off the ground. And it's a huge accomplishment that we're proud of. And it would not be possible with you know, a dozen amazing people that are on our team.
Paul Zelizer 14:08
Awesome. And we're gonna get into what it looks like now as a business in the second part. But let's let's talk a little bit about some of these layers of impact. And again, this is so fascinating. So one of the layers of impact is climate and sustainability. Humans like caffeine. Right. And most of that caffeine in the US or in North America, most of that cabling comes from really far away. And that was one of the problems from an impact perspective. You all said we can do something about that. Tell us a little bit about that part of your impact.
Bryon White 14:44
Yeah, well, as I mentioned, yo pawn which endemically grows in the southeast us, meaning it grows, nowhere else is our only caffeinated plant native to the US. So that means everything that you consume, which is caffeinated, whether it be coffee Your tea or the crap and your energy drink, you know, whatever it is, it's coming from abroad, it's coming from somewhere generally very far away. And if we're referring to just tea, that plant material is moved on average 8000 miles to reach the American consumer. And we are importing into this country about a quarter million tons of plant material that's made into tea every single year, which means 150 million Americans are drinking tea in some form or another every single day. And we're moving that material, mostly by ship using tons of fossil fuels to reach our shores. And once it gets here, you're dunking in hot water for a few minutes, and then throwing it right in the trash. So to me, it's like an extreme example, of wasteful consumerism. And it's something that's totally unnecessary, because we have our very own caffeinated tea growing right under our nose, that has been historically significant part of our country and the cultures that existed before our country for at least 8000 years, probably longer. And we just want to bring it back. I mean, it makes so much more sense. Why are we moving tons and tons and tons of crappy plant material from 1000 miles away when we have something that is, in many ways better growing right where we live. So building that supply chain, creating the products around it, is really become sort of a, you know, life's goal of mine. And I think our team has really rally around that we've got a really potent base of customers that really love the tea and seek it out, you know, fervently and I think that's going to continue, you know, and and that is a climate change, change, play and a sustainability play, because it is extremely carbon intensive to move that much material that far to get here. And I just think even if we chip away a tiny bit, at the American tea market, which is worth about $20 billion annually, we can really put a dent in this thing, you know, we can just change consumer behaviors ever so slightly. And I think that that is really the key, it's not changing all behaviors drastically. It's changing each little behavior slightly or, you know, as much as you can. And that sort of thing really moves the needle, I believe.
Paul Zelizer 17:22
And I saw resemble everything you just talked about. I'm a very passionate green tea drinker, I try to buy organic, I don't throw it out. I'm passionate gardener, I recycle it. But I, you know, but I need to switch. This episode's reminding me because like, there's huge impact. It's coming from Asia, the tea I get I tried to buy it sustainably sourced and all that stuff. But your your conversation that we had before we hit record really helped me realize, here's something that I can do that every single day, I drink a cup of green tea sometimes too. And when you add that up over a year, that's a lot of impact. And I make this simple shift. So the sooner you can check in and see how it's going, but that's that's one of my new. I'm gonna make that shift. Okay, we converted you, you converted me I need to taste I hope it tastes good. I trust it. I haven't had a chance to taste the app, but like, oh, it's, yeah, you're talking my language in terms of impact and good quality tea. And I know all the research about tea listeners, you know, I'm a biohacker. This is not a biohacking podcast, but I am ultra marathoner in my mid 50s, you know, things like reducing inflammation and lots of other good outcomes of drinking tea. They're just like off the charts. And, yeah, I encourage you to go look up the health benefits of drinking tea. They're off the charts beyond the scope of this podcast, I'm going to keep drinking tea. But here's a solution that is much more sustainable than what I've been doing. So thank you for bringing that to my attention into art.
Bryon White 19:00
So Brown, my pleasure.
Paul Zelizer 19:02
So what another layer the impact, which was fascinating to me, is, who's growing this tea and how the as you were saying that before, as I was saying before, this, this criminology background, and like, I don't like how this feels, and that was part of the, you know, pivot to what you're doing now. And the impact part of it alone is fascinating. But then there's this other layer, what if we get some folks who historically have not been very well supported by the American economy and go give them some economic opportunity, as regarding this company? Tell us that part
Bryon White 19:40
of the story. Yeah, sure. So I put a lot of people in jail, hundreds of them, and I'm not saying they didn't deserve it or have it come in. But one thing I learned throughout 10 years in law enforcement, and also I have an academic background in criminology and criminal justice before that. It is that the root cause of criminal activity is always poverty. You know, it doesn't really matter what type of criminal activity you're talking about. And it's caused by a lack of services, a lack of education, just a complete deficit of things that should be available to everyone in our society. And I just think that if these individuals who, you know, come from low income backgrounds, or underserved populations, had more support had a safety net, I think you would just see a drastic reduction in criminal activity everywhere. Because I really firmly believe that people don't necessarily want to commit crimes, you know, they're, it's an act of desperation, that comes from a lack of opportunity. And one thing that I always wanted to do with this business was to create opportunity for people who otherwise might not be able to have it. And that started with our harvesting program, which employs Second Chance labor practices. So we don't care if you have a felony conviction, we don't care if you've been addicted to substances, we will give you a chance and we will employ you. And if you do a good job, you will remain employed. And not only will you remain employed, you will make a livable wage. And on average, our Hus our our harvesters make about $30 An hour working out in the field. Now it is really hard work. It's very tedious and labor intensive, and they're out in the elements, but they get to work their own hours, they're paid for the work they do. So I really think like for a lot of these people, asking them to be a nine to five Hammond agar probably would not be compatible with their lifestyle or their needs at home. So by allowing them to work when they have time, or when it's convenient for them, we have a lot better retention. And we have very, very low attrition in our harvesting programs. And these people have changed turn their lives around, just because they're able to make a legitimate living, and it gives them you know, autonomy and agency and dignity. And we see them not committing crimes, you know, they are instead buying homes or starting families or you know, getting a new car, or getting off the streets or getting clean. And it's not because we ask them to or make them do it. It's because I think when people are given a shot at a better life, they're inclined to take the shot, especially if it's a fair shake. And the same can be said for our regular production employees. You know, we don't care about criminal convictions. We also hire neurodiverse people. So we recognize that there are a lot of folks in our community that can't get a conventional job that want to work and feel like they can provide value. And in many cases, we see that they do for us. So I really think that employers everywhere need to be looking at these types of opportunities and creating them. And this is something that we've done both in Florida and Mississippi, both places where it is sorely needed. And if you want to talk about cultivation or farming, that's a whole different ballgame. Because I think so many farmers in America are marginalized and economically disadvantaged by the industrial food complex, and the certain unfair practices that support it. And we want to flip the script on that job. You know, it's like, let's turn it around and allow people to grow things that give them agency and control over their own lives. So when we
Paul Zelizer 23:51
talked about we talked about the economics of that, because when you started breaking this down for me, before we record, it was pretty significant. What a farmer in the regions you're talking about would make growing conventional crops, cotton or soybeans versus what a fully operational farmer with the upon and potential that a crops can be making and where the context of the making of a really sustainable livelihood. It's quite revolutionary.
Bryon White 24:20
Yeah, well, our ag business or the Ag side of our business, which started with propagating our own yo Pong trees, designed for food production. So they didn't exist before we we went out and identified wild trees that had desirable genetic traits to be used in food production. And it started as an offering a native alternative crop offering to Florida farmers that had been impacted by citrus greening disease, which is called H lb. And that has really decimated the citrus industry in Florida, like 45,000 people have lost their jobs in the last decade. So it's a really disastrous impact from a bacteria Real disease that was brought to the US on shipping material. The idea is that citrus in Florida is a non native monoculture that over time has lost its resistance and immunity to diseases that naturally occur in its environment. This is one of those. The irony here is that citrus originally came from China. Guess what the citrus psyllid Laos, the bug that carries this disease also came from China on shipping material. Our trees here have just been so far removed from their original state, you know, the trees that were brought here 500 years ago by the Spanish, for instance, that they no longer have any immunity or resistance to this bacterial disease. So the trees are just getting wiped out. We started pitching your pawn as alternative to that had some success there. And also with conventional agriculture, farmers that just wanted something different, they wanted something low impact, they wanted a crop that wouldn't freeze that wouldn't get killed by a hurricane that wouldn't get killed by salt intrusion. That wouldn't get eaten by pests and your pond ticked all those boxes because it was native. And then a few years after that, we went up to the Mississippi Delta or other facilities located our Clarksdale, Mississippi facility. And I found such an immense presence of large scale commoditized agriculture, you know, just millions and millions of acres being cultivated mostly by large conglomerate farming entities like nutrient egg and you know, a lot of other ones that are leasing millions of acres of land from most you know, wealthy landowning families in a place that is the most impoverished part of America. And they are growing, you know, commodity crops, like cotton and soybeans are the two most prevalent. And you have these small landholding farmers who tend to be people of color in that region where 92% of the population is African American, for example. And they don't own 1000 acres, they own 10 acres or five acres. And they, you know, want to find a way to make a living off their land holdings like anyone should. But they're never going to make a living, growing cotton or soybeans, because the returns on those crops are extremely low, especially at a low, you know, a small parcel of land. So if you grow cotton, for instance, this year, you might make $600 per acre per season, that same farmer growing yo pond for us could make on the order of six to $9,000 per acre per year per season. And when they plant the tree, they're not planting it for a season. They're planting it for a century. So the idea is that it is a generational wealth building tool that doesn't require like lots of toxic crap or high impact inputs, doesn't need all those things. Because this is a native crop that has evolved to thrive in our present climate, you know, in where we live in the south. So the idea is that people who could not conventionally make a living on the land that they own and probably have owned for generations, now they can, that's the hope. I mean, we were still building this thing. It's still in the nascent stages, but we've had a lot of success and a lot of adoption. And I think people are very, very optimistic just in Cuyahoga County, Mississippi. And last year, we planted about 17,000 trees. So it's it really is a very hopeful situation in that region.
Paul Zelizer 28:33
Well, listeners, have you been listening, paying attention at all, you know me at all, as a bio hacking, permaculture, obsessed impact obsessed person, you know, now I was so excited to introduce you. Or I got it there. You're just checking all the boxes, Brian is off. Let's do this. In a moment, I want to come back and hear about what the pond brothers looks like. Now, a little bit more about some of the economics you're talking about what you've learned about this multiple layers of stories? How can we learn how to do that as impact entrepreneurs and a whole bunch more. But before we do that, just want to take a quick break and hear a word from our sponsor? Do you have a business that's about making the world a better place, and you want it to grow both in terms of your impact, helping more people and your income so you could live a good quality life? If you do, I'd like to talk to you about some research for a second. When scientists look at what actually contributes to humans reaching their goals, the single biggest predictor, whether it's a wellness goal, or it's a business school, is what they call social support. In other words, a group of people who are on a similar journey, who can help you with specific strategies that work on that journey at the time and point of development that you're on, as well as emotional support for the ups and downs of that journey. Being a social entrepreneur has highs and lows, right? If you like that kind of support, but we're printers has a community called the AWARE printers community, over 270 really generous and really skillful social entrepreneurs. And that's what we do with each other. We share concrete strategies, as well as emotional support for the ups and downs of the journey. If you'd like to find out more, you can take a look at aware printers.com forward slash community. And thank you to everybody in the world printers community who helped sponsor this podcast. So welcome back to the second part of the show everyone, right, we'd like to talk about after the break, we'd like to like get a little more granular, we've been talking to the top level, and there's so many layers of impact here. It's so beautiful, and we got a sense, you're at a 25 person team, we got a sense of how you're growing the sourcing, and we're partnering with farmers in these incredible ways. So like, right now, if you if you give us a sense of like, just give 25 team members, how much product is going out there every year right now.
Bryon White 31:13
We are producing right now about 20,000 pounds of yaupon leaves a year, which can translate into several 100,000 sellable units of of our tea, which mostly end up in the hands of consumers through retailers like Whole Foods Market and Walmart, or through E commerce direct to consumer. And so you can buy it on Amazon and on our website. So it's about a 5050 mix. During COVID. It went strong into E commerce. And now it's sort of bounced back into resale, retail and wholesale.
Paul Zelizer 31:50
And tell us the story. It's always a journey to get into like big stores or big platforms like Amazon or Whole Foods tell us a little bit like that. Here's a product that people hadn't heard of. And you're developing, you know, awareness of the product and you walk into whole foods like what was that? Like?
Bryon White 32:08
Yeah, well, it is like nailing jello to a tree. Like to describe it. Because it's it is actually a very onerous process that takes a really, really long time. And my brother, Kyle now manages a lot of that department. And we're very lucky to have a commercial and sales lead named Sam Wiley, who is really, really knowledgeable and how to bring these products actually into the marketplace. But it continues to be a challenge, you know, and I think one thing that CPG founders really underestimate is the amount of capital outlay that is required to support their product successfully at retail, you know, retailers do not care about selling your products, they care about shelf space, and it comes at a premium. And it's sort of like, one thing that I didn't realize until you know, we really got there was that it's it's our job to sell our products doesn't matter if it's in Whole Foods, you know, we have to support the effort to sell those by using brokers by using merchandisers by having shelf talkers, and T PRs and demos, and these things, all costs money, they all have a labor number associated with them. And I think a lot of founders don't think about that going into I certainly didn't, you know, I certainly didn't know, I thought that hey, it's it's the store's job to sell the product. And while that may be true, in some sense, it's also the brand's job to sell itself. And that took a lot of learning, I would say it also takes a lot of time, you know, to get an account like Whole Foods, it is an investment. It's an investment of time and resources and capital. And it often does pay off. But there are a lot of unseen challenges like chargebacks and slotting allowances and discrepancies with distributors. And these things can really sink a brand if they're not planned for in advance. And I say that with the caveat that I did not go into this business knowing these things. These are things that these are mistakes that we made and learn from. So I like to talk about it with you know, like minded audiences so that they can understand that there are landmines out there. And I hope maybe by listening to this, you can not step on some of them.
Paul Zelizer 34:37
So at this point, 12 years in or something like that 11 years in iteration number two and planting 17,000 trees in a year. And by the way, if I remember correctly, part of this program working with marginalized communities, at least some of those farmers, you're helping them finance those trees. Am I remembering that correctly?
Bryon White 34:59
Yeah, when we can, we have actually paid for the trees for farmers, it is part of our business model to actually sell the trees to farmers that you know, are large scale, maybe corporate entities. But for small scale land holders that can't afford to pay $3 A tree, or something like that. We do subsidize the cost of it in some cases. So it's on a need basis, number one. And it's also on depending on our financial ability to actually cover those costs. So we can't always do it. But we have done it many, many times, especially in places like the Mississippi Delta. We have a farming partner up there who is like colloquially known in Clarksdale, as a brick man, because he has a he's a brick mason. But this guy wears a bow tie and suspenders overalls every single day of his life and has a big hat and, you know, used to see him around town, he's this iconic figure, and brick man came to us and wanted is wanted to do upon farm. And we put a plan together and put 3500 trees on brick man's farm that are, you know, doing very well. So the idea is he now has a revenue stream for himself and his family that could last for generations. And we have a supplier, another supplier. So it's sort of a win win for everyone. And I think it's really important, you know, everybody has to win. So much of business is predicated on one side, you know, having all of the leverage and all of the benefit. And I just think that's not sustainable. You know, you've got to make it so that everybody's happy and everybody's benefiting. And that level of equity is what will really last through time.
Paul Zelizer 36:52
I got chills as you were telling that story about Bregman and just thinking 3500 trees could easily last 100 years and the economics of what you're talking about. It's yeah, again, listeners, let's help tell the story, please. So right now, Brian, so you're growing both the market? Do all those activities you were talking about? And you're growing production? Like if you look at what's the where's the bottleneck? Now? Is it more on the creating a market? And people say I want to buy this? Or is it more on? Like we can only grow so many trees a year given that this isn't wasn't just a few years ago, tree, you could walk into a nursery and buy there's only so many commercially viable trees in the world, because you and the society you've helped build are the ones who've created that strain. Like where's the bottleneck? Would you say right now?
Bryon White 37:47
Oh, boy. Well, it's a moving target. Right. I mean, I would say two years ago, I would have definitely told you that it was supply, you know, as getting enough leaves to fill demand. I think through our efforts and the efforts of other people in the space at the American neocon Association, we've really moved the needle on that problem. And we've aggregated a lot of the supply into a consolidated product pipeline. So it's there is yo Pong available these days, it's still not at the level that it will need to be to command a large part of the American tea market, but it's certainly getting there. And it's getting there rapidly. So that's no longer at least for us, the primary bottleneck, I would say, the primary bottleneck for us right now as capital, you know, it's raising enough capital to actually grow at the clip that we feel like we need to to make this thing really sing. And dealing with investors and venture capitalists and private equity shops is a constant source of frustration. I mean, it is so hard to explain the value proposition that makes them excited, you know, because it isn't tech, you know, the tech Boehner thing is real. And so many investors want crazy returns on their money, that I think are really unrealistic. And I think those returns are so high because they have to support an astounding rate of failure. And I just think the model is broken and needs to be reevaluated. And I'm not saying there are not really, really impact oriented investors out there. There certainly are, I think it's better than it used to be, but not being able to give a VC 10 or 15x returns, it really does push us aside a lot more than I would like it to you know, and I would ask like, Okay, how many of these tech applications that that they are investing in for actually making it are actually making the world a better place? I mean, the answer is some of them. I mean, tech is extremely important and I certainly don't want to downplay the, the way that all these tech applications have improved our lives. But at the end of the day, people still need the stuff, you know, tech empowers the stuff and makes it better. But it doesn't actually make it, in most cases, you know, and somebody has to go out there and grow the food and make the products and bring them to market. And I just think that a lot of those types of producers are being left behind, you know, they're being starved of the capital that they need to grow. And it's just sort of sad and wrong. And I hope it gets better. I mean, we've had a lot of angels sort of lift us up, and make it possible for us to get to where we are. But our business is at the stage where we need several million dollars in capital, pretty immediately to get to where we plan to be over the next several years. And it's an extremely heavy lift to get it,
Paul Zelizer 40:57
I really appreciate your name in the rain. And again, the past year and a half, two years have gotten way more involved in the world of the sea and investment. And seeing that skew that you're talking about. And again, I'm I'm good with tech, and like I'm a permaculturist that's not a that's not a frequent combination. But you know, I'm a walking contradiction wrapped in an enigma guys, I don't know. But I really see that scheming that you're talking about that if you have some sort of physical product or something that's about, like, if you like to eat listeners, like this is a really important conversation, really important conversations.
Bryon White 41:42
And I really want to backup what I'm saying by not hating so completely on tech founders or VCs, like, it's really easy to make venture capitalists the enemy. And the reality of it is that it's not a zero sum game, you know, there's just so much that goes into this, that it's really hard to wrap your head around it with limited resources and limited staff, you know, you only have so much bandwidth. And to go after capital for businesses like ours, which are CPG, and ag firms, and are operationally intensive, it's just really, really, really tough. And I would say a lot of VCs are used to having a CPG brand that just finds a supplier slaps a sexy package around the product and brings it to market, they're not producing their own goods, they're not holding their own inventory in most cases. So these are very, very low lift enterprises, that can have a very significant return. So that's like, very sexy to an investor, we're we're sort of like, you know, here we are, warts and all. And this thing can really change the world. But maybe you only 5x Your money and said to indexing it, and a lot of them just aren't interested in that in I don't know if I can fault them for it, but I'm going to fault them for it.
Paul Zelizer 43:05
And I'll call them I'll cosign that, with care and compassion. The other thing I would say is in the food brand space, I get pitched a lot at you know, organic, fill in the blank, right or vegan fill in them, and I'm gonna get there again, I'm not against I try to eat mostly organic, I grow whatever I humanly can, and we double the size of our garden this year. And the layers of impact that you just told us about not just the climate repercussions of not shipping this stuff, 1000 miles, not just although it's really important, working with marginalized communities, people with histories of incarceration, the layers of just from a climate perspective of it being an indigenous product, and maybe less vulnerable to some of the things that are happening to important food products. As climate change is being a little less susceptible. There's so many layers here. And we're an impact oriented community. And that was part of the reason I was like, Oh, here's a food brand that is doing something spectacular. And please listeners, like, go dig a little deeper into what's going on here. And I wonder, other than just, it's hard and complex and sometimes, probably not easy to have all these monthly layers of your impact story. In a world where people want things in a 32nd. Soundbite like like, what what might you share about having an impact story with this many layers?
Bryon White 44:48
Well, it's hard to talk about I mean, and that is a big challenge is just articulating the different layers of the impact and and how every thing we do is designed to somehow make the world a better place for people. And, and to be honest, it really isn't that hard. You know, it's not that hard to tweak things. And we refer to it often as a double bottom line. You know, like, of course, we're a business, of course, we have to be profitable, like, that's what makes us sustainable. But if we're not also helping the communities where we operate in some way, then we're not hitting our number. And I think that it's really important for businesses to understand the responsibility that they have to their communities and to society in general, like businesses, just they really changed the way the world turns, you know, and it's sort of like the cornerstone of the economy. And I think as entrepreneurs, we have to take responsibility and ownership for that, you know, knowing that for a really, really long time, maybe for the last several centuries in America, that we've let greed and profit dictate who succeeds and who fails. And I really don't think that's a healthy way for a developed country to think about itself. We're just sort of screwing ourselves over, you know, it's like, okay, yeah, we got to make money. Thank you, I get it. Definitely important, but there's a lot of other things that are equally as important even as being profitable. And I think that if we're not accomplishing those goals, then for me, there's no point. Yeah, there's no point that just go get a job somewhere else, you know, it's like, that's not why we're in this, we're in it to, like, I always say, flip the script. You know, the, the American food system sucks. And it marginalizes everyone and it farmers are at the bottom of the pyramid, and they do all the work, they shoulder all the risk, they take all the responsibility, and they make the least amount of profit of everyone. It's just not fair. And I think consumers will be the ones to change that. Consumer demand is the most powerful tool in our arsenal. And I think informing and educating consumers on how to make better choices. That's how you get them. That's how we change things. I mean, that's how we really make an impact.
Paul Zelizer 47:20
Oh, you drink tea listeners? Come join me. Yeah, come join me. Yeah. So Brian, I could hang with you all day, you're doing such amazing work. And I know you're busy. I know, our listeners are busy. If there was something that you were hoping we were going to get to today, and we haven't touched on it, or there's something you want to leave our impact founders with, as we start to say goodbye. What would that be?
Bryon White 47:48
Oh, man, I have to pick one thing. Let me think it's so hard. Because there's so many things that I want to say you can say three things. Okay, I'm gonna say three things. If this is for founders, I would say, Take every piece of advice you get with a grain of salt, because everybody's going to give you advice. And a lot of that advice is going to be bad and wrong. And not because the people are bad and wrong. Just it's because it doesn't necessarily apply to what you're doing. I mean, these things are so incredibly nuanced, and all important. You know, don't forget why you got into it. Don't forget to follow your instincts, because you know, what's really happening in your business, even when you think you don't. And also, just don't be shitty. I mean, that's a good mantra, right? I have to remind myself all the time that being an entrepreneur these days often means making 1000 expedient moral compromises, which I saw somewhere the other day, and I was like, Oh, my God, that's so true. And I just try to not do it. And I don't always succeed, I have to make compromises all the time, have to do things that I don't want to do all the time. But one thing that I tried to employ in our business every day, is an ethic of reciprocity, you know, I treat people are at least trying my best, the way that I would want to be treated if I were in their shoes. And that doesn't matter if it's a consumer doesn't matter if it's an employee or a colleague, or an investor. It doesn't matter if I can try to be empathetic enough to put myself in their shoes and to stop myself from being shitty. Because I wouldn't want to be treated badly myself. I think that it's so simple. But such an important thing for founders, for anyone in business, anyone in life, to remember just like that basic childhood premise of the golden rule, and how to treat people the way that you want to be treated, not subjective. It's super easy to understand an employee so I think I will leave everybody with that because it has become The most important part of my business philosophy, simply because it's easy to understand for everyone, and it's easy to remember, and it never fails. So treat people the way you want to be treated.
Paul Zelizer 50:12
Brian, thank you so much for being on the show today. Hey, thank
Bryon White 50:16
you. Thanks for having me.
Paul Zelizer 50:18
The listeners, we'll put a link in the show notes to the American Nippon society, the upon brothers, Tea Company site and a few other things that got mentioned today. And again, this one's easy. If you drink tea, or know somebody who drinks tea, how can you help? It's obvious. Go to the site, go check it out. And all dudes. Let's lift this up, folks. So before I go, I just want to remind you, we love listener suggested topics and guests. If you have an idea you think might be a fit, go to our website, where printers.com and on our contact page, we have three simple guidelines, we try to be really transparent about the kinds of stories that our listeners want to hear. And if you look at those and say yes, I've got one, please send it on it. For now. I just want to say thank you so much for listening. Please take really good care and these intense times. And thank you for all the positive impact that you're working for in our world.