219 | Personalizing Your DEI Approach to Maximize Impact with Justin Ponder
Our guest this week on the pod is Justin Ponder. Justin is a professor of African American Studies and Ethnic Studies. He is also an instructor who teaches a certificate program on diversity, equity, and inclusion through the University of Wisconsin School of Business's Center for Professional and Executive Development. He is also Chief Information Officer with Uplifting Impact, a DEI firm that provides services in consulting, training, and coaching.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Personalizing Your DEI Plan to Maximize Impact Interview with Justin Ponder Transcript
Transcription with Otter.ai.
SPEAKERS
Justin Ponder, Paul Zelizer
Paul Zelizer 00:01
Hi, this is Paul Zelizer, and welcome to another episode of the Awarepreneurs podcast. This podcast is all about the intersection of three things, conscious business, social impact, and awareness practices. Each episode, I do a deep dive interview with a thought leader in this intersection. Someone who has market tested experience and is already transforming. Before I introduce our topic, and our guest today, I have one request, you could go over to Apple podcasts or whatever app you're listening to the show on, do rating and hit the subscribe button. It helps tremendously. Thanks so much for considering. Today, I'm thrilled to introduce you to Justin ponder. And our topic today is personalizing your DEIapproach to maximize impact. Justin is a professor of African American Studies and ethnic studies. He's also an instructor who teaches a certification program on diversity, equity and inclusion through the University of Wisconsin's School of Business Centers for professional and executive development. He's also the Chief Information Officer at uplifting impact, a DEIi firm that provides services and consulting training and coaching. Justin, welcome to the show.
Justin Ponder 01:16
Thank you so much for having me, Paul.
Paul Zelizer 01:20
And not only all that, which we can't wait to hear from you about, but you also have an awesome podcast. Justin has his own podcast and as a fabulous host, and we're gonna talk about that among many other things in today's show.
Justin Ponder 01:35
Yes, thank you. Yes, yes, we do have a podcast and it's valuable. I share it with my wife, who is the chief change agent with uplifting impact. Her name is Deanna sing so we share the opportunity to have conversations with all kinds of awesome people who really enjoy it. Yes.
Paul Zelizer 01:54
So Justin, one of the ways we like to get to know somebody, we’re called Awarepreneurs, after all, is to find out about a wellness or resiliency practice that you personally use for this important important work that you're doing. But it's not always super easy. Yeah, I
Justin Ponder 02:12
would say I spend a lot of time being very conscious about thinking about the things I am for, it becomes tempting, and the work that I do, to become fixated on the things that I am against the problems I'm working against the injustices I'm fighting against. And taking that against negative mode is important and essential to moving forward and creating greater good. But at least in my mind, it can become very easy for me to become more fixated on what I'm fighting against, rather than what I am working for. So I spend lots of time being very conscious about kind of practicing positive psychology, positive goals, setting even positive organizational thinking. So I'm always thinking about what is the goal? Now what is the problem that I want to do away with, but what is the goal I'm working towards, and especially in the area of diversity, equity and inclusion, when it becomes very important to address the problems of whether it's privileged microaggressions unconscious bias, all these complicated and problematic, difficult issues. But I also spend a lot of time intentionally working in celebrations, that while I'm working against exclusionary practices, that I also build in plenty of time to celebrate underrepresented communities to celebrate inclusive culture. So kind of wrap it all up to make sure that I have a clear understanding and focus on what I'm working for. Beautiful practice
Paul Zelizer 03:51
in the universe seems to be kind of like, nudging me particularly hard to remember that because I'm wonderful guests that I did an interview earlier. Today's varies literally the first time anybody mentioned it, and it happened twice today. So I guess it seems to be especially important right now. And I do think we're in some very challenging times. And and we're gonna actually even talk about some research that you shared with me before we hit record about how important it is to be mindful of that sort of, where we're trying to bend the arc over time and to be skillful, and how we're working towards that change with a positive vision. And what happens when we don't we'll get to that in a little bit. But there's some very significant research that you shared, that I want to make sure we cover. Before we do that. I want to talk a little bit about how did you get into this work, like give us the short version of the origin story, like whether it's in the university or in a firm that's working with companies are in this certificate program, working with leaders, you've been thinking about the and what's happening in organizations for a really Really, really long time?
Justin Ponder 05:01
How did you get there? I would say I was kind of born into. So my father is black, my mother is white, which makes me born among the first generation of constitutionally protected black white babies in the United States. Loving v. Virginia, was the Supreme Court decision that upheld the constitutionality of black white intermarriage in the United States. That was in 1967. So growing up, I knew a handful of black white mixed kids around, but not that many. And then I was usually among the oldest, and most of the ones I knew were relative, or people from similar experiences of my own. So I think I've had a long personal experience of always being in between multiple worlds, and kind of building bridges, finding ways to connect worlds that we're told are so different, that they should be apart. And I think that's also translated when it comes to the work that I do in diversity, equity inclusion, finding ways to bridge the gaps between people who are in leadership in organizations, and underrepresented groups trying to enjoin enter those organizations to join them to find more inclusion and a sense of belonging there, that oftentimes they're speaking the same thing. But there's this disconnect, and kind of standing in the middle, and finding ways to facilitate conversations not to introduce like new things that I've made up or things that I'm bringing to the table, but finding ways to create opportunities for opposite sides of the river, to come across the bridge and connect together. So whether that translates to the classes, in African American Studies, ethnic studies, or the consulting work we've done in diversity, equity and inclusion, or a lot of the more informal conversations we've had with kind of volunteer groups, whoever wants to show up, we're having a little free webinar about how to talk to your kids about race, which was really kind of a very important thing that happened. We did at the beginning of last summer, after the murder of George Floyd, where lots of families were having these conversations for the first time with their children who was on the news, and they were trying to figure out how do I have these conversations. And to be clear, it was white families, because communities of color, have these conversations with their children all the time, where it's much more comfortable, hey, in order to navigate in this society, you have to know a lot about race, you have to know a lot about racial perceptions of who you are. But a lot of white parents were figuring out, hey, how do I talk to my kids about the things that they're seeing on the news. So that was kind of a very valuable like launching point where it kind of had the public conversation of these are the issues that people are concerned about. This is how it connects to my family. This is how it connects my personal experience. But also this is how it translates into the professional realm as well. And I think that's what's been exciting is seeing people who are excited about how to make change on a social level. also find ways to incorporate their personal experience, but also translate it into tactical, very specific, concrete things that they can do to bring into the professional realm as well, that changes the economic climate in which we live.
Paul Zelizer 08:27
And that last part is exactly why you're here. And we're so grateful to have you. Yes, our title today is called personalizing your DGI approach for maximum impact. We've had quite a number of conversations, and I'm sure we'll have many, many more both on the podcast and as a smaller membership community for sharpeners. One of the things I really appreciate is this idea of personalizing your dei approach. It's not something that there's some template that like hear everybody do this. Everybody in every situation is going to be just fine. There's a way in which this idea of nuancing to your situation, I'm oversimplifying a little bit, but I do think that it's a strength of yours, Justin, as I was learning about your work and getting ready for this interview, this personalizing your dei approach, what do you mean by that language? And can you give us an example?
Justin Ponder 09:25
Yeah, I think it's first a key differentiator is how we define dei. So we think about social justice movements as being those that are more. Of course, there's overlap between the social justice movements as well as the but it's what their focus is that where things differ a little bit, where the social justice movements are focusing on things in the social realm, things about laws, things about politics, things about policy on a national level. And of course, diversity, equity inclusion overlaps with that, but it's much more intentional about Okay, that's fantastic. This is what we're part of what we're doing. But we're going to primarily focus on how those things translate into the professional realm. So when it comes to personalizing my the approach, it's how do I combine the social issue with my personal experience, in conjunction with my particular professional space. Of course, there's plenty of best practices, we don't encourage people to reinvent the wheel or come up with something completely from scratch. There are plenty of best practices, there's plenty of things that other organizations have done, or people have found that work well. However, when people jump too quickly to the organizational, and they want to focus just on the structural, just on the system's just on the policies, they kind of miss out on a key element of the personal of how do these big broad professional issues and social issues. How am I personally equipped to kind of take a particular manifestation and put them into practice. But then on the other side, there's people who focus way too much on just the personal. Were talking about diversity, equity inclusion, talking about social justice, is really nothing more than me, having an opportunity to develop my own intellect to learn more, or to have an emotional experience. So it's important to talk about the intersection of these two things. What I'm going to do out in the professional world, but also taking inventory of what I am uniquely positioned to do. And when we talk about personalizing it, we really want people in their quest to pursue a fairer, more inclusive world of belonging for others, to also extend the same courtesy and kindness to themselves. We see lots of people charging out and wanting to do the big important work. And it's like running a marathon, but they decide to do it running backwards with no shoes and not drinking water. So they make it harder on themselves. And there's three kind of things that we focus on for personalizing that make your dei initiatives, plans, practices, sustainable, and effective for other people, in order to be effective and helpful for other people, you have to be able to do things that you can do. And one of the things is to focus on, starting off with what are your skills? What are you already good at. in this space, lots of times people feel the pressure, hey, I have to be out front, I have to be the orator, I have to make all the big rousing speeches, even if that's not my skill set, even if that's not my personality, if you are a person who is quiet and reserved, who likes to do research behind the scenes and collect data, diversity, equity inclusion requires a lot of that too. So we want people to tap into what are my skills, if I'm love crunching data, there's a D avenue for you. Also looking at the tasks people already have to do. So often we see organizations and individuals say I'm running a mile a minute. I also want to do diversity, equity inclusion, I'm going to add that on top of what I'm already doing. But the organizations and individuals who have the most sustainable and effective approaches are those who are able to integrate it into what they're already doing. So for example, the person who crunches the data if that's already your task list, if I'm already in a position where I have to crunch data, finding ways to tweak those tasks, to incorporate diversity, equity inclusion into it, as opposed to some separate special project that gets added on to it. Those are the things that end up being sustainable. And also, this last one is the one that people tend to have the hardest time with, is understanding their personal interests. Interest is one of the most amazing words and it talks about like finding your being between multiple things. And what interests me is what is going to sustain me. And if I tried to jam the D square peg into the circle hole of what I do and what it's not going to work, it's not going to sustain and also you'll come off as inauthentic. If it's not the AI as ways that make most sense to you and most authentic to who you are and who you're what your interests are. It's not going to work and people will see it as fraudulent. But if they Hey, this is my interest. This is what I'm good at. This is my personalities. This is what I'll use to kind of create a Venn diagram of what the looks like. For me. Those are the ones that help people kind of retain their self care their personal health that end up making their Dei, practice sustainable and effective.
Paul Zelizer 14:47
Those are such fabulous tips Justin and and full disclosure. I have been passionate about trying to learn and be an advocate and an ally for dei for a long time. And I definitely have been one of those folks that hasn't always been skillful. And as I'm listening to your suggestions I'm thinking about more recently. I love podcasting. I love social entrepreneurship. We've it in Paul, right, right, have Justin on the show and talk about it in a social entrepreneur contacts, like, I'll do this all day, every day, you know, with a huge smile on my face, as opposed to some other ways I was trying to lead which were less effective and were weren't working for me, and they weren't working for the people around me. So full disclosure, and right, in the in that spirit, I want to share, I want to ask you, Justin to share, you talked about before we hit record, you talked about some research about that. And can we talk a little bit about that research? What happens when somebody goes out hard? And then like, burns themselves? Or the people around them out?
Justin Ponder 15:51
Yeah, well, first of all, quite often, what happens is people come in very forcefully, not necessarily well, and it's kind of this strange contradiction of terms in their quest to be more inclusive, they don't really create more inclusivity. They don't necessarily work with those around them to see what dei would look like in their particular organization with their particular people. And they're not all they're also not very inclusive of their own individual personalities, skills, interests, and tasks. So even though they're on a quest to be more inclusive, they have a very exclusive and very monolithic template that they're operating off of, these are the things I have to do. These are the books I have to read in our book club. These are the drastic, sweeping changes we have to make. And there's virtues to that. And I understand that comes from a good place. And I understand also in many organizations, and many personalities, that might be the way to go. However, at the same time, the long term statistics show that across the board, when people come in with the sweeping changes very quickly without getting by it. Without getting enthusiastic support without including people, even the reluctant people, even the resistant people without finding what dei looks like at my particular organization. And they come in with a broad template of this is what we have to do everywhere. And this is how we have to, again, jam the square peg in the circle hole to make it work. It has disastrous effects. Usually the people who are spearheading these objectives don't last. They come in, they work very hard, very passionately and very sincerely. But they end up leaving. And many times they end up leaving the organization more precarious, for marginalized communities than they found it. One of the most, kind of one of the most striking statistics that always keeps at the forefront of my mind, is a study that shows an organizations that emphasize this is what we have to do. And they've kind of make it an issue of legal compliance. These are the things to avoid, this is the bad behavior, you must stop and they pose a threat as an ape, you do not do these things you will be fired. If you do these things we will get sued. has its virtues in some places I understand. But studies show that the lesson that people end up taking away quite often is if, for example, black women pose such a threat to the organization. If we do these wrong things, and we alienate black women, we could get sued. Or if I do these wrong things, and I don't make these advances for black men, I could get fired. The backlash is the lesson that gets taken away, okay, just don't hire black women. And it's been shown over and over again, that when the de I approach for an organization is not done in ways that take into account the particular culture, and kind of create a consensus and collaboration with people who are already there and kind of impose things from the outside, that for five years, they're after the demographic that suffers the most is black women, that they don't get hired, they don't get promoted, they don't become managers. So lots of times when we talk to people who say, you know, maybe take your time, learn about what dei would look like with your particular personality, your group, your organization. The retort that we have is note we have to do this. Now we have to make big changes, we have to make sweeping, drastic overhaul of our organization, we need to do it quickly. And I understand where that comes from. But the stats show that who ends up suffering the most is black women for years to come. Because the lesson that many people take away is it's too dangerous, to be diverse, equitable and inclusive. So avoid it altogether by just not hiring people from underrepresented communities at all. So if nothing else if that's, you know, there's got it. And to be fair to the plenty of the listeners out there. I would be listening to myself and say the same thing like you're telling us to look at my own interest. You're telling me to take things slow. That sounds like coddling That sounds like watering things down. In order to make changes for people who are marginalized, I have to make quick and sweeping changes. But the statistics show that when I come in trying to make those deep and swift and sweeping changes on behalf of communities that are marginalized, they're the ones that end up suffering in the long term. So if you can't be kinder, a little slower, a little more patient, for yourself, then keep in mind that the broad organizational statistics show that it's also beneficial to the precise marginalized communities. You're trying to help.
Paul Zelizer 20:36
Thank you so much for that Justin. And listeners know this, you know, listeners, if you've been around for a while, I'm a new ultra marathoner, Justin, some people like to say, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. And I've been saying lately, it's not a marathon. It's an ultra. And it's a metaphor, but like, literally, my marathon pace is too fast for some things I've been trying to do. And I really have to look for this is a lot these patterns have been going for a long time. And I've tried to pace myself and still not been skillful. And so just I just want to say, listeners, if you're in like, wow, that was really powerful, what you shared. And again, Justin, thank you for that. I just want to say, here's some of my self talk, just fold like Paul telling on himself, right? Here's how I'm trying to think about this. As somebody who has been working to try to do my part as best I know how for a long time, and seeing Yup, even my marathon pace is too fast. Okay, the best cleanup that I can, you know, be be honest, and in right relationship, as best I know how, and Alright, let's go forward with an ultra marathon pace.
Justin Ponder 21:52
And the next person, it might not be an ultra marathon, it might be a no marathon, it's I just walk around the block. And I think it's important to keep in mind that the quest for inclusivity is inclusive of different approaches to it. If we knew the template, the universal playbook. For a more inclusive workspace, we would already have it by now, we would have cracked the code and figured it out. But lo and behold, like most things in human experience, it depends. It's contextual, it differs from one person to the next, from one organization to the next. There are certain kind of generic broad principles that work in the abstract, but the particular iterations of them differ, and they depend. And for a more inclusive space, for a more inclusive world, we need folks to also look in word and find, hey, am I an ultramarathon? Runner? Am I a marathon runner? Am I a sprinter? Am I a hurdler? Am I a power Walker? Am I a couch sitter? The quest for inclusion needs to include all kinds. So yeah, I think in the quest for inclusion, even being inclusive of yourself and your personality, and your part, you mentioned that doing my part, your part is part of a larger hole can't be off on your own doing your own thing. But it is also your part you can't simply do and try to replicate what other people are doing. It requires a little bit of your own personal touch as well.
Paul Zelizer 23:22
So believe it or not Justin actually try to listen to what our guests share on here. And I heard you say, your practice, one of your practices is to be for something. So we just talked in a very powerful way you just shared, like what happens when we go out harder, we try to do these deep sweeping changes without some, you know, skillfulness, and awareness of who we are and who else is in the organization. And what the work is, I love those three tips you gave the tasks and my personal style, just fabulous. When you're there, when the AI goes well, when a culture starts to shift, and when an organization is really starting to move in a meaningful way of being more inclusive. Let's talk about your professor. I know you know something about what I don't want to do it wrong. And you can't do it legally, right? That you just told us what happens there. But the four part of it when an organization genuinely moves in that direction, what happens? What are what is some of the research Tell us about that?
Justin Ponder 24:28
First of all, there's a few of the maybe drier, less attractive and specific and quantifiable metrics right. So first of all retention rises. We talk quite often about the curb cut effect. That refers to the cuts in the curb and build a ramp from the street to the sidewalk. And the first curb cuts that were introduced in the United States were in 1945 in Michigan, and they were for designed for returning World War Two to veterans who use wheelchairs. Now it was designed to be inclusive for this particular underrepresented group. But it has benefits for everyone. It benefits the person pushing the stroller who values the ramp from the street to the sidewalk. it's beneficial for the person who has temporary joint pain because they're sore from running an ultra marathon the next day and the previous day, they're having a hard time getting apparently
Paul Zelizer 25:26
walk it all Yeah, that would never happen to me, I don't know you're talking about. And it
Justin Ponder 25:31
also benefits the person who's just walking in texting and doesn't pay attention that the curve is coming up. So inclusive organizations kind of tap into this curb cut effect where, hey, if we can create an inclusive environment, where people from the most marginalized groups feel like they can show up, be their full selves, be authentic, and also feel like they belong. We will end up creating that sense of belonging for everyone. So retention rates rise, the amount of turnover lowers
Paul Zelizer 26:04
Can I pause you right there. There's all this talk right now about the great resignation. People are leaving the workplace. I know the stats in America like two thirds of the workforce is trying to figure out how to get out of their current job two thirds like a third have pulled the cord right and and a third of those have pulled the cord have started their own business which is relevant to our audience specifically. And a huge number of those pulling the cord very disproportionate are people of color specially women of color, right? Am I going out on a limb and like just kind of blowing smoke out of somewhere by saying that if you're talking about the great resignation, but you're not thinking that up to inclusion and inclusive environments, you're kind of setting yourself up for great resignation coming soon to an office on zoom in person, wherever you work near you. Am I like being? Am I being unfair by making a connection there do you think,
Justin Ponder 27:07
not at all that's completely accurate and completely fair. And people have been talking about these issues for a long time. And the pandemic just kind of sped things up. For years. Accessibility advocates and people arguing for disability rights and ability different abilities, status has always been arguing, even on a federal level, the organization's are you, you should if you want to retain people who have different abilities, statuses, you need to make a more flexible work hours, that is the key. If I have chronic pain, I can't necessarily be predictable enough on my own health to say Monday through Friday, nine to five, I can come there and I can work. However, maybe it's from 7am to 10am. And then I need to go get some medical attention. Or maybe I know in the early or the late morning, I have really deep pain. But by one o'clock I'm back. And then I work from one to 8pm that flexibility of when I work, but also where I work from has always been a fundamental issue for people arguing for accessibility. But it also translates we see now in a global pandemic for all kinds of other social identity groups, that people from marginalized communities are more likely to have difficulty showing up for that Monday through Friday nine to five what because doing that requires a certain amount of predictability that is denied to many people from different socio economic backgrounds. If I am a person of color in the United States, I'm much more likely to live in a multi generational house, they're much more likely to be giving extended elder care, which means I'm much more likely to have to leave at two o'clock so I can take my elderly parents to a doctor's appointment. If I am a woman, I am in the United States much more likely to be in charge of child care. Which means when my child is sick from school, I have to leave. If we have flexible work, scheduling, and you can work from home. It creates opportunities from all sorts of people who cannot fit in that Monday through Friday, nine to five, to be able to participate, to be able to do their best to be able to show up and be their whole selves. And also, lots of organizations who do this work is very simple, inclusive action well, through the pandemic have seen their productivity and their profitability, rise. It's better for the people. It's better for the organization. And not only makes moral sense, ethical sense, social, political, personal sense. It also makes financial sense. So they organizations who have already put into place grounds for inclusive flexibility are the ones who are doing just fine. But the ones who are seeing this great resignation are the ones who are being as flexible, inflexible now as they were before the pandemic, and are not allowing people to be their full selves, and just kind of work is work and home is home for a very advantaged small sector of our society, for most work is not work work is also home work is also personal work is also blending the personal, the professional and the social. And lots of people talk about it now like, Oh, I'm working from home, oh, oh, it's hard for me to balance work and life. For many people from underrepresented groups. That has always been the case, I've always had to work and check my cell phone to see if I have to pick up so and so I've always had to drive to work and cross my fingers and hope my car doesn't tank out on the way. For many in our society, and many from underrepresented groups. There's never been the luxury of imagining personal and social was separate from the professional. And the pandemic has shown for the first time lots of people who've had that luxury in the past. No, this is what it's always looked like for many others.
Paul Zelizer 31:17
I know quite a few leaders who are working in companies that are advocating doing the work the best, they know how to be more inclusive to have flexible work situations. People are knocking at their doors you can I come on for you please. And they put up a job, you know, description, it gets shared virally. And they're getting dozens or hundreds of applications right? In the organizations that are more rigid, that aren't creating a sense of belonging where people don't feel a sense of like their whole being and their values are welcome and listen to you. They're supposed to shut off important parts of themselves. And those organizations are some of the highest attrition rates that I am. I couldn't agree more what you're saying. Yes, absolutely. So let's do this in a minute, I want to come back and hear the second part of the show we talk about very specifically what you're doing and how you do this work, including a fabulous summit that's coming up. Before we get there, I just want to take a quick break and hear a word from our sponsor. dealer business, that's about making the world a better place. And you want it to grow both in terms of impacting more people and your revenue. If so, you know that some of the things that social entrepreneurs struggle with finding resources and people who understand our kind of businesses. For example, if you need a website, to somebody even understand what you do, somebody who does Facebook ads, or you need a logo, or you need a VA, somebody who can help you grow your business when you're not quite ready for a full time employee, etc, etc. Where do you go for that kind of support when you have our kind of business? Where printers has the community over 280 strong right now of social entrepreneurs who help each other in very granular ways. You can post your latest sales page, ask us about pricing, ask for a referral for somebody who does an important service that you need, whether it's a lawyer or a logo, it's affordable, start to $25 a month, and we have members from all around the world. If you'd like to find out more, see how we might be able to support your business. Take a look at aware printers.com forward slash community. And thank you to everybody in the world printers community who sponsors this podcast. So Justin, in the second part of the show, we like to talk about putting on our social entrepreneur glasses. So put on your social entrepreneur glasses a little bit and you actually have a number, like at least three buckets, there might be more because you're a busy guy, but you have a bucket where your professor teaching things like African American Studies, and I think minority literature, right? You have a bucket where you're working with this incredible center and doing some very high level certification with professional executive development through the University of Wisconsin School of Business. And then you have this uplifting impact social enterprise dei organization that you started with your wife and you guys are doing awesome work. So let's let's focus in to start with let's go to that uplifting impact part of things that's really interesting to me about what you're doing there. Tell us a little bit about what uplifting impact is and some of the services that you all provide.
Justin Ponder 34:51
So uplifting impact provides all kinds of services and thank you for those kind words, Paul, for we focus on consulting. So we go kind of behind the scenes, and we work really well with organizations and spend lots of time listening to them, listening to their needs, listening to their goals, and helping them articulate those goals for what do diversity, equity inclusion looks like for them? Again, so getting to that point of what is sustainable, what is going to be workable, what gets you slightly further than you think you can go, but not further than you actually can. Also doing training, providing really accessible, solution oriented, future focused, practical and tangible things. And we like to focus on our training of what I can do as an individual, what can I do in my small team? What can I do as an entire organization? But also, what can I do by the end of the day? What can I do by the end of the quarter? What can I do by the end of the year, so everyone comes away feeling empowered. The way that diversity equity inclusion works, the best is when it gets buy in, when it gets enthusiastic support. So that's what our training focuses on. In addition to consulting and training, we have lots of thought leadership, we published a book called The Smart Girls guide to race and inclusion. And we also have coming out actions speak louder, a step by step guide to becoming an inclusive workplace. So we like to try and reach people at all these different ways. And we'd like to focus on here are some practical things that you can do, but always leaving the room for, how will this work for you? How does this translate into your own experience? And like you mentioned, we're very excited about our summit that's coming up. And where we try to create like kind of a workshop. Here are some best practices here some concepts, here's a new way of thinking about things. Here are a few statistics that might help you convince other people to go into the objectives to go on to the initiatives that you're thinking about. But then really creating a lot of space for people to reflect, to translate. What does this look like in my own particular sphere of the world?
Paul Zelizer 37:05
What's the summit called? And who would you say it's for?
Justin Ponder 37:07
It's called the how to be an ally. And the people that it's for anyone who cares, the joy, but the people that who usually come, there's, I don't know, that's maybe too easy to say that people who usually are people from all sorts of different walks of life, we have executives who write for profits, we have people who are just starting off, I am our organization's Diversity, Equity and Inclusion officer. But we're a nonprofit. And we have about 50 people. And we have limited resources, all the way to, hey, I'm a middle manager, I have a team that's probably about a few 100. I don't have Dei, specifically, in any of my titles, or any of my specific duties. However, I'm very interested in this, and I want to kind of almost moonlight on the side. Whereas off, so lots of people who are I'm not in the professional space at all, I have maybe some contracting work that I do, I'm not in an organization, I'm retired, I'm staying at home, but I'm just interested in this for my personal development. So I think maybe some of the commonalities are people who are interested in the social element of greater inclusivity. But also thinking about how do I translate those into my personal space, and challenging my own assumptions, my own biases, my own unintentional microaggressions, but also those who are looking to also combine that with their professional development, how do I take these skills, and become not just a better person, but also a better person, for others in my professional space, which is important. Increasingly, in the United States, we spend a majority of our time at work, even if we're working from home, we spend the majority of our headspace wrapped around our professions. So that's why a lot of this drive is happening. This is why so many people are interested in diversity, equity inclusion, it's not just the content, it's not just the specific issues, they want to find ways to make the professional work they're doing being more meaningful. I'm looking for deeper meaning. I'm looking for my workplace to also provide me ways to create social value, personal value, as well. And I want all these things to have importance and diversity, equity inclusion, and the how to be an ally summit is a place where they get to learn some practices, best practices, some research, some experience that we've seen with consulting with different organizations and people. But what's really exciting about it is having almost this cohort model where they get to spend lots of time talking to other people about what they've come up with. And that's where I get really excited. It's a virtual summit. So we have people from all over the world from all different walks of life. But my favorite part is when our producer pushes the breakout room button and you see people's zip off The screens fade and they go off into their breakout rooms. And you can only imagine the types of fantastic conversations they've had, we might start them. You might spend a few minutes, maybe 20 minutes at the top of the session to provide some prompts some common language, some common concepts, but then they get to go off on their own, and they get to make meaning in their own spaces and become co creators of the educational experience to learn what dei means for them.
Paul Zelizer 40:27
We'll put a link in the show notes to the summit and all the resources, the books, all the things we're going to mention today, so go check it out, listeners can't recommend it highly enough. On top of all that, if that wasn't enough for your podcast, or tell us about your podcast,
Justin Ponder 40:45
sorry, podcast is with uplifting impact. I share those honors with Deanna Singh, who is the chief change agent of uplifting impact and also my wife, partner. So that's fantastic opportunity. We just get to talk to awesome people. Paul, you know what that's like?
Paul Zelizer 41:04
What did I do in my last life to like, wind up doing this? I don't know what I did. But thank you last life person. Yeah.
Justin Ponder 41:12
For all you did, and like to thank you, Paul, for spaces like this, where sometimes being in this and sometimes having these interests, so many people are lonely, they feel isolated, maybe they're in environments, or workspaces or different areas where they are surrounded by people who don't necessarily share these aspirations or values. And this creates a space where they realize they're not the only one, where there's others who share their aspirations. It's a place where we don't feel lonely. And it's really valuable for me doing the podcast because it comes almost like healing and a place for inspiration, where I might go out and spend a lot of time talking to people who are resistant or reluctant about diversity, equity inclusion, and I start to doubt myself, I start to doubt what I know, I start to doubt what I've learned, I start to doubt my effectiveness. I mean, this is something where that's plagues a lot of people from underrepresented groups, the feeling of imposter syndrome, you're in a space that wasn't made for you, you constantly feel like you don't belong, you constantly feel like you're not good enough. But the podcast becomes a space where I get to talk to all these folks who, yes, this is what we do. Yes, these are the values that we hold. Yes, keep going. It's worth it. Yes, yes, keep hoping, keep trying keep moving forward. And I just get to talk to some of the most inspiring people, I just come off of the podcast recording really jazzed up and ready to go. So much like places of your own, it becomes a place for us to gather around the fire, and tell stories that remind us of who we are, and what we're doing, where we came from, and where we hope to go. And there's something very essential to that about gathering around the fire or gathering around the podcast to remind us of who we are.
Paul Zelizer 43:04
Absolutely, Justin, I would add in the spirit of accessibility and inclusion. One of the things I so appreciate about podcasting, really any sort of interview styling, but specifically podcasting is one is we can use our networks in provide access, no cost, it's free, right. And all the amazing humans, you know, just in the maybe I'm that person who doesn't have a formal dei role. But I care deeply about the topic, and I want to make a difference, but I need some help. And my organization doesn't have a budget or it has a very small one, I can't hire a world class resource. But I can still take part in the conversation and learn from some of the best of the best for free. And the other thing I'd say about podcasting is podcasting takes less bandwidth than most other forms of internet, you know, access. The if you have the most simplest of devices, the cheapest device that could get on the internet can listen to a pod as long as you're physically able to hear and if you can't, somebody who's thinking about podcasting and inclusion, there's a wonderful AI transcription service called otter.ai. And you can make a transcription by just uploading your interview in like $11 a month for like 6000 minutes or something crazy like that. Um, so you can make it accessible even for somebody who can't hear as long as they can read or you have access to a reader but like the simplest devices in places and very, very, very rural places where the internet is cheap cell phone that gets shared by a whole village we have customers who listen like that. So there's so many ways what you're saying resonates and I just want to add digital inclusion in the digital divide is another way that workplace inclusion and Accessibility is oftentimes not tended to and podcasting in my research. And as I think about it as another way to be super inclusive, because we take the financial barriers out, we make it as accessible as we know how in terms of internet bandwidth. And we give access to some of the best of the best in our networks, to anybody who's willing to get on the internet. And listen, that's pretty radical in my world.
Justin Ponder 45:27
Now, so beyond the formatting accessibility, I think there's also kind of what might be educational accessibility, like the work that I do on the podcast, has farther reach, oftentimes in the work I do in academics, and also the audience. And the format and the way that we have we're having conversation you're having, where are your sources? Can you please cite this, this this thing, and it's not an academic conversation, where there's room for that, and there's a place for that, but that can alienate a large swath of the audience that is still looking for and is hungry for this conversation, for these ideas, and for inspiration. So I love even just the format of that it's conversational, that it's not me in front of a slideshow, giving a lecture. It's a back and forth. It's a conversation, and it's a conversational tone that's designed to be accessible. It's designed to be relatable. It's designed to foreground my humanity. You can hear me, edit myself, you can hear me start down a line and backtrack, you can hear that I haven't practiced this and polished it all up, that it's really trying to get to the core of who I am, because I think that's really important about the whole approach that we've been talking about diversity, equity inclusion, and personalizing is for grounding my personhood. I'm a person who thinks a mile a minute, I talk too fast, and I think even faster, and I my thoughts outrace my tongue, and I say stuff like not, that's not right. And I'm constantly adding myself, I'm stuttering, I'm backtracking. Guess. I grew up reading my diversity, equity inclusion started with reading these giants of African American History. Reading Frederick Douglass, I don't know if this man ever set a wrong word, my goodness, look at all those stories about his resounding oratory, and it filled me with a lot of insecurity. There's no way I could do that. But what's really exciting about taking it off the written page, taking it out of the Annals of the history books, and putting it on a podcast is, oh, Justin sounds just like me. Justin's all over the place. Justin's making bad examples, Justin has all sorts of analogies that he'll probably email Paul within 20 minutes to be like, I don't know, maybe you might want to edit out minute 45 as I made a comparison, and it doesn't really hold up like that we're people. And we're full of faults and failings, and we're just working in retrying. And you can too, and I think that's the inspirational aspect of podcasting is what I've really been drawn to, is that it shows hey, these folks are folks, just like you. And if they can, if I can figure out a handful of things, I guarantee that you can, too. So hopefully, that's empowering.
Paul Zelizer 48:14
Thanks so much for that Dustin. I'm noticing the time and I want to ask you one more question before we wrap up. And I was trying to decide which way to go. You haven't even touched on all this work you're doing at this professional center. It's awesome. And I'm gonna put a link in the show notes to not go there. Because I want to ask you a different question. The more personal question. The question is, you're doing like I said, at least three buckets, right? being a professor teaching in this professional development is pretty esteemed in the region. And then you have the social enterprise DDI firm, with your wife no less. Yeah, that's complicated. It's beautiful. And that's complicated. Talk to us a little bit about how do you balance when you have more, in your case, three roles, right? That you're doing all of them are asking high performance from you and being in a leadership, public role and helping people through some very hard conversation. And then just to make it more interesting, do it with the woman you love and do business with her together? Like that's a beautiful and complicated dance is my imagining.
Justin Ponder 49:26
Yeah. And I think the thing that has helped me and I can imagine help quite a few other people is a word and a concept and a practice that I don't hear mentioned very often, and I don't even hear mentioned very often in this particular work, is humility. If I get stressed out if I get frazzled if I get confused, if I get anxious, it's usually because I've let my ego mind to grow a little too. Much. I've become greedy for opinions greedy for outcomes, greedy for efficiency. But when I slow down, and I'm humble enough to listen more than I speak, to wonder, more than I conclude, to ask more than I answer. That's where I feel most of my purpose. That's where I feel most in line with all the things that I'm supposed to do. So constantly emphasizing the ways in which I should be humble and constantly consider, what if, what about what about all these things, even when I have a breakout room, and it's a mandatory training for a organization where more than 70% of the people at the organization, dislike the and think it's the downfall of their business, and they can't stand why I'm there, even listening to them. Even trying to understand them on their terms, without judgment, with complete patience and complete openness. I think a lot about one of the models that I have is tick, not Han, and his concept of compassionate listening. It probably doesn't show during this podcast cuz I'm talking so much, but really trying to emphasize whenever I go in, and there's somebody saying something that I cannot believe just came up in the chat, that I cannot believe during a training session where we're about ready to conclude and everything has been nice and pretty in high production value, and we're wrapping up. And then all of a sudden, they decide to make an offhanded and infuriating and offensive statement. To try and slow down enough and realize it's not about me, as the trainer, me as the consultant me as the session facilitator, and just listen as compassionately as I can, and give other people, even people who have hurt me, to do my best to be humble enough to give them the listening, they need to heal themselves. That's where I find peace. That's where I find sustainability. And that's where I find freedom. It's not the skill set, or the calling to which everyone work. And I'm not saying everybody should do this, or this is what the way that you should respond to microaggressions. Or this is the way you should respond to things. But I know for me, being the egoist, who really wants to conflict that I should, and has probably caused more damage with my lack of tact and patience. That is what sustained me and that is my goal. And that's what's worked for me is that humility, and compassionate listening. Thank you for that
Paul Zelizer 52:45
answer, just an interview email, and you go there, I really appreciate it.
Justin Ponder 52:49
Thank you.
Paul Zelizer 52:50
So I could hang out with you all day. And you have a lot to say, and I'm loving learning from you. And you're busy man. And our listeners are really busy. If there was something you were hoping we were going to get to Justin and we haven't gotten to it yet, or is there something you want to leave our listeners with a thought, a practice or resource? What would that be?
Justin Ponder 53:12
in your quest for greater inclusion. Make sure to leave plenty of room to include your particular skills, the tasks you're already doing, and the interest you already have. Don't insist on that you have to make things harder on yourself that you have to become something that you're not that you have to completely change who you are. You were you are this way to improve to grow a little bit. But there is also something that's kind of like a what divine conspiracy to have you be the way that you are. And there is within you some particular manifestation of inclusion that has never existed before. Something I can never do something Paul can never do something no one else who's ever been involved in this inclusion work can do, and only you can, and finding out what that looks like not just for your personal development, not just so you can aggrandized yourself and say, Wow, this is really fun. I learned a lot and I'm doing nothing with it. But your particular way of helping people is unique to you. And there's something to dive deeper and look inward and be inclusive about your individuality and your pursuit to help others.
Paul Zelizer 54:28
Dustin thank you so much for being on the show today. It's just been fabulous having you here.
Justin Ponder 54:33
Thank you so much, Paul for having me.
Paul Zelizer 54:36
That's all the time we have for today's shows listener before you go Just one more thing we love listener suggested topics and guests. And a matter of fact, that's how Justin got here. Baby literally from my brother and he said you need to like hear about these books, Greg. Thank you, Craig. Yeah, thanks, Greg. Big fist bump, but you don't have to be my brother. All you have to do is I think somebody would be really, really, really good on this show and go to where printers.com and our contact page has three simple criteria. We try to be super transparent what we're looking for. You check those out and you say, got somebody, please, please send along your idea. For now I just want to say thank you so much for listening. Please take really good care in these intense stuff. And thank you for all the positive impact that you're working for in our world.