166 | Inclusion & Sustainable Fashion with Zack Hurley
Our guest today on the pod is Zack Hurley. Zack is the Co-Founder and CEO of Indie Source, is an entrepreneur and motivator with experience working with both private and public sector organizations. He was recently named to Forbes "30 Under 30" and Apparel Mags' "Top 30 Under Elite".
Resources mentioned in this episode:
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Zack Hurley Awarepreneurs Interview
SPEAKERS Zack Hurley, Paul Zelizer
Paul Zelizer Hi, this is Paul Zelizer, and welcome to another episode of The Awarepreneurs podcast. This podcast is all about the intersection of three things, conscious business, social impact, and awareness practices. Each episode I do a deep dive interview with a thought leader in this intersection. Someone who has market tested experience, and is already transforming many lives. Before I introduce today's guests and our topic, I have one request. If you could go over to Apple podcasts or whatever app you're listening to the show on and hit the subscribe button and do a review it helps tremendously. Today, I'm thrilled to introduce you to Zack Hurley. And our topic is inclusion and sustainable fashion. Zack is currently, the co-founder and CEO of indie source, is an entrepreneur and motivator with experience working with both private and public sector organizations. He was recently announced to Forbes 30, under 30, and apparel mags top 30 under elite. Zack, welcome to the show\
Paul Zelizer We’re called Awarepreneurs Zack and one of the ways we like to get to know somebody is to ask you about a wellness or an awareness practice that you personally use to bring your best self to Work Day after day, week after week.
Zack Hurley Yeah, sure. So probably the most important one for me is a set of corrective exercises that I do in the morning, I met a guy named Kai Taylor and posture movement out of LA. And he taught me about how the body is usually not in alignment. And when the body is not in alignment, all sorts of chaos can happen. And I learned from the sky, basically how to put myself back in back straight. And what I learned is that not only does that help me from a physical perspective, but it also puts me in a great headspace. So every day I do these set of exercises that make sure that my body is feels good. And that I'm in a good headspace as well. Here, a lot of people talk about alignment and conscious business, you're literally talking about align, literally stacking my head, literally stacking my hips and making sure that I'm not I'm not doing anything that's, that's hurting myself. And from there, the foundation is set and you can move on to other things.
Paul Zelizer Cool. So you've got this fabulous company called Indie Source and your whole thing is about sustainable fashion, like, how did you get into that passion? And give our listeners who you know, may or may not have some sense of like, what, what's the state of fashion, maybe unsustainable fashion? Is that not kind of the norm in the industry?
Zack Hurley It definitely is. And we are at a turning point too. So I mean, as anybody who's like looked at the news has seen that their fashion businesses that are going bankrupt, left and right. And part of the reason that that's happened is because of the model that it exists under. And that model is one of overproduction, and just like completely ignoring anything having to do with like, what the effects are. And, you know, what happens is that these companies are so over leveraged, they're making so much product, they're appealing to such huge parts of the market. And when something happens like the COVID, it just takes a huge hit on them. And there's so much overhead, which leaves room for a set of very tenacious hungry entrepreneurs that see problems in the industry, and they want to fill it. And so what I do, what nd source does is we support emerging fashion entrepreneurs that are looking to get into this space and have a specific niche in mind, a lot of the brands come in, and they want to be a part of the solution. So we're sourcing, sustainable fabrics for them. We are helping to source materials and labor that's sustainable, making sure that there's an ethical component to it. We produce in small batches rather than producing tons of units that may not sell. And we also produce close to where they're being sold. So oftentimes, production is done overseas in Asia, it's then shipped a million different places and ultimately ends up in the United States and so we're trying to build localized supply chains in a way that is just a much more sustainable you don't have stuff sitting on a boat traveling the planet to ultimately get back to the US.
Paul Zelizer Zack, why fashion? You're doing so many cool things that can and I want to get into like I don't want to just touch him I want to go deeper. But before we talk about you know why you try to do as much production as you can in LA and what about your fabrics? Why fashion? Why does Zack Hurley have such a passion for the sustainable fashion industry?
Zack Hurley 05:00
You know, I have to be honest about that part. Like, I think I fell into that. And I mostly fell in love with the problem. And if at the beginning and then through time, I sort of fell in love with fashion, does that make sense? Like you sort of fall in love with something when you put enough hours into it. And so now having so many hours, you know, the doing this for about eight years of just like pure work and hustle and working on this business that, like, I understand fashion on a different level. And so I think that was something that has transformed for me. But what has always been, there is just kind of been the desire to like, solve a problem, to create a business and to support other people that I know are capable of like bringing their ideas to life. And simply knowing that, like, I have the team and the tools to help them do that. So like, I have to get this thing out there. We talked before we hit the record button, I can and I think that I, one of my senses is it's like it's such a mass. In the national world, you're like, Oh, look at all these problems. Like we make much too stuff. And then we throw it out and look at the way you know, the dyes and it's like made in China and then imported. This is a freakin mass, I want to do something about it. Right? Is that fair to say? It's something like exactly, not, it's a total mess, man, it's a total mess. And part of the reason it was a mess is because you have in the beginning, you just have these giant companies that are selling to the whole country, they have all of the market share, right, and so they're just trying to produce as much as they can, and none of it really fits either. It's kind of like, you know, it's it looks good and wears out really fast, they make it to mass charge. So that's, that's what we're trying that's what we're trying to move away from. And the market is demanding that their demand just like in food, the demand even know what's you know, what they're putting in the body, they want to know what they're putting on the body, they don't want to know how it's being sourced. And the other model is, you know, it, that's due to the fact that people can communicate directly with their customers now, before if you didn't have a store or department department store, how are you going to reach your, the people you want to sell your product to but now it's completely different. So now we have a way for people who have a specific message, or they have a social cause or something that they're trying to accomplish through products, to reach out to people that are part of that tribe, and to build a community around it. So you look at this industry and you're just like, you know, both how it's produced and the way it's sold. There's a thought I'd really broken this is broken Dinah is a dinosaur industry that but but genuinely, that's what got me excited about this is the dinosaur industry as like, cuz you know, the tech industry, like, Okay, so that's moving along, then you look at apparel, and you're like, they're stuck in the 50s in a lot of cases. And of course, there's there's lots of new companies coming up. But generally, anybody in apparel will tell you like, the way things are done in the manufacturing industry are very old school. And when I started Indy source, I couldn't even find manufacturers that had a website. I mean, let alone like being able to use credit cards, they like would want faxes, and I kid you not this the most insane stuff
Paul Zelizer 08:03
sees their eye, here's an opportunity to do some serious disruption. Forget. Right and you Alright, so now let's chunk it down. So you see this industry, it's a mass. And let's start going kind of piece by piece here. One of the ways it's a mouse is in, like, where it's produced. Talk to us about where most clothes made that are currently sold in the United States.
Zack Hurley 08:25
Yeah, what's it? What's it like in those communities? Yeah, the vast majority of clothing that's sold a little bit less than 2% of all of the clothing that is sold in the United States is made in the United States. 2%. Yeah, so everything else is made overseas. And, you know, obviously, China is huge, but you know, they're, they're transitioning to lower class countries. And so although it did originally move to China, since then, as those costs rose, it's just been this like, silly game of let's just find the country that has the cheapest labor. So it goes from China, then it goes to Vietnam, then it goes to Bangladesh, you know, and so it bounces around these other areas, ultimately, not putting these communities in a better position, but ultimately, kind of like trying to increase profits as much as possible. And the, the, if you just look, logistically, what has to happen is you have to ship it on a boat across the planet, you have to guess how much units you're going to sell, because you don't know you're doing it so far in advance. And so it's just it's not a sustainable visit me at every single aspect of the traditional apparel manufacturing model is bad for the environment.
Paul Zelizer 09:37
What's it like if you live in a place where clothes are made in a traditional way you live in one of these manufacturing cities in China or Vietnam or Bangladesh? And yeah, what's the impact of these clothes? Let's stay with made for let's say most of our listeners are either in North America or Europe, right? But they're made in these places that we just talked about what's like, like on the ground there?
Zack Hurley 10:04
It's, it's not great. And part of the problem. And it's, there's there's two aspects to it. One is just what is the cost of doing it so far away, and then shipping it all around the world. And then the other thing is, is more of a human element, which is like, what is the cost of the fact that you have no idea what's going on in a factory? And what does it really like? And so, I mean, a lot of this stuff has come out, but I mean, it's, and I recommend, you know, people watching the movie, the true cost and getting educated and what what happens in factories abroad, where there's no, you know, there's nobody like holding them to a standard, but the other countries have different standards, right. And so the, there's, there's things that pop up, like child, children working abuse, to the women in factories. And it's not to say that this is everywhere. But the point is, is that when you just send it to some other country, and you just take the cheapest labor, there's going to be a cost. And oftentimes, it's a cost on the human element and somebody who is in a very, very bad situation. And so that that's the problem with just saying, Oh, I'm just going to go to China, but you have no idea what's actually happening when you ship it over there.
Paul Zelizer 11:14
We're talking Yeah, harassment, the secret been, you know, deaths and factory fires. And exactly.
Zack Hurley 11:22
Rana Plaza is a huge thing that happened number of years ago, where a bit in Bangladesh, for the whole building collapsed, because they didn't take care of the infrastructure, nobody paid attention to it. And these are, these are factories that are working for well known brands, well known brands that everybody that the majority of the country and everyone in the country knows about many people were big box stores, and it's just, you know, it gets out of hand when you're working when you're dealing with these companies that are so huge. And so part of what I want to do like, it's like, we need to democratize the whole thing, we have to make it so that not, there's not so many massive corporations and portfolio companies that that own the entire market share, it needs to be democratized and spread out so that more people have more control over the market and decide what it's going to mean for us. And so if that if we can do that, then it just puts us in a position to like, have like, make the change that we want, basically. And so we have all these like, terrible ripple effects of doing business in this way. And the places and for the people who are actually making the clothes in the cities where the factories are located. And then in talking with you a de aha moment, but hadn't thought about it before. It's like the clothes don't even work for the people who buy them. They're, they're cheap, but they don't fit. Well. If you're not a standard sizing, talk to us a little bit about like, some of the issues there and the lack of inclusion in terms of who clothes are currently made. Yeah, I mean, clothes are made originally for the mass market. And that leaves out so many people.
Paul Zelizer 12:56
So many.
Zack Hurley 12:57
What does that do? I mean, the ripple effects are huge, it creates self confidence issues, people just like don't want to go shopping. And so if you just think about the, just like, our country, and how many different kinds of people that are out there, I mean, it's the majority of the clothing at your basic store is not going to have what they need. And so what we're seeing is now an opportunity for people to want to be a part of that solution to raise their hand, say, you know, what, I, I want to make clothing for you know, plus sized women who just go to the store and just never find what they need, right? I want to make clothing for guys that are shorter, and, or bigger, or this or taller, fat, skinny, doesn't matter, like something that they're not getting right is not in the market, and they want to create something different for themselves. And that's what's really kind of like cool to me is that that's going to come from entrepreneurs, like your listeners and people that just like see a problem and want to create a solution and know that they can make it and sell directly to the people who would really be happy about receiving it.
Paul Zelizer 14:00
And so on every level listeners you start to get a sense like the current way clothes are done, it's harmful to the people in the communities that they're made in is incredible environmental costs, we're talking about shipping things around the world, or just you know, fabrics that they're made themselves and the dyes and the way the cotton is grown or etc etc. Doesn't fit a large majority of people if you're shorter than average, or heavier than what you know the standard person who's designing closes thinking about who they have in mind or if somebody is an amputee or they're in a wheelchair right there's so many ways it's not working so
Zack Hurley 14:40
Yeah, we got we've we've done like a lot of medical apparel, which I didn't know we would do right in the beginning I didn't never crossed my mind. But we got so many increase people like alright, I have this particular condition and I want to make a product that helps other people like I'm like wow, that's so cool. Like we're gonna not just making like apparel like we're making money. Some super functional thing that like allows you to get put your IV through it and like without taking your shirt off and like, Okay, now we're really making really unique products that are solving problems.
Paul Zelizer 15:10
So from sustainability in the earth issues, environmental issues to like, the way there's blind spots about who wears clothes, I mean, it's kind of like obvious. Humans are really diverse. And then people are making clothes have some incredible biases about who they've had in mind. So enters that resource, right? So you get a sense, you can go check out the website, and then we could spend the whole time talking about all the problems, I want to get to the solution. But I wanted to give her sense, a sense of like, why this is such a ripe space for you guys to come in. Now, one of the things I love and we're going to get into some specific examples, but the thing that's really interesting about your business model to me is that because you didn't come in and say, we're going to make all these clothes for these different audiences, somebody who's taller than average or heavier than average, or has a medical situation, etc, etc. You said, we're going to help people, all these entrepreneurs are out there who see ways that it's not, it doesn't fit for literally, the clothes don't fit for who's out there in the world. And we want to do something for to make it easier for all these entrepreneurs to get up and running. Is that is that fair description of your basic business model?
Zack Hurley 16:23
Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's really my passion, you know? And it's like, how can I synthesize what other people are seeing as these problems, but support them through that part where they're just static? And I think I mentioned to you this before, but most people I always ask, how long have you been thinking about your idea? And most people always say years, not months, it's never months? It's like years, I've been Think about it for years. I'm like, Oh, wow. Okay, so everybody is thinking on their idea for years before they take action? Think about what kind of impact that is, what if we could move it to much bigger?
Paul Zelizer 16:54
So give it give us a couple of examples of the entrepreneurs that you've worked with? And you're excited, like, what kinds of things are they bringing to you? And then we'll talk about the ways that you help sustainable fashion entrepreneurs
Zack Hurley 17:05
like, Yeah, sure. All right, so a few I just talked to a guy, gage over at Green stain, and he's doing sustainable apparel, and educating the consumer on what they don't know, they don't know about water and waste, and all sorts of things that go into their products, which is very cool. We work with wahoo yoga, which is an apparel line, it's made out of recycled fabrics and small batch production for them. She just sells direct to consumers and she's making a you know, whole lifestyle business out of it. Universal dialect is a brand that we make these sustainable t shirts for. I think it's 10 sell that we used. And for every shirt that they make, they donate soccer balls to kids all around the world, and they travel around the world playing soccer. This guy's really passionate soccer player. And he's like giving back to the community in that way. We make just talk to we do like a series on on our Instagram. At source presents, we'll interview some of our clients. Another one was named Lauren gray. She's doing inclusive women's wear line for folks that have been left out. And other ones Ribeiro, which is sustainable apparel company. And incidentally, Jillian, the founder now works with indie source. And so it's been really cool because she joined. She's inspiring what we do. We're inspired what she does, and so kind of joined forces and she's helping other fashion entrepreneurs with their dreams while she builds her so cool. So yeah, I got like, there's like 500 brands. So there's a lot of examples.
Paul Zelizer 18:37
Awesome. And you also told me one about a medical apparel?
Zack Hurley 18:43
Yeah, I think I told you about Rod Carew, the baseball player, you know exactly
Paul Zelizer 18:46
who you told me. Yeah.
Zack Hurley 18:48
So so so rod carew has this heart condition. And basically, it's not that many people that have it, right. So it's pretty specific. But we made this shirt for him, that allows him to, like, it's like all this Velcro and like crazy, like attachments that allow him to carry all of his medical equipment on his body. So it's like, really, really convenient for him. And I'm not, you know, I don't know all the technical terms for it. But, you know, he, you know, everyone's why puts in an order sells it. And it's like, Okay, cool. I didn't know anything about that. So I learned, I learned a lot from things like that. And but you know, different medical companies that I know are helping a lot of people.
Paul Zelizer 19:27
We have over 500 examples and people can go to your Instagram, we'll put that in the show notes and you do a whole series but sort of the center. Yes, sense right, from medical folks to people who just are bigger than what the average designer is thinking about and are they're shorter or whatever and and these folks have specific issues that they come to the source for I've got this idea, literally been in my head for years like and what are some of the things that they're coming to you for help with
Zack Hurley 19:58
it's usually every thing in terms of making it a reality. So they like they have the idea. But what like what do they do first? Okay, and so for for we like we know, okay, well the first step is you have to outline exactly what you want to produce as well as from material perspective, and then also the price points. And what we do is we walk them through the stages resource fabric for them, we make patterns, which is the actual fit of what every garment has cut and sew samples, we iterate with them, we work with hundreds of vendors around the LA area, that do dyeing and have special elastic and trims and labels. I mean, there's so many aspects to a garment that most people look at it, and they don't even notice the stuff in a collar that makes it thick. It's actually another fabric, it's called fusing. Most people don't even know that, right? So little things like that we have to source. And so what we want to do is put these entrepreneurs in a position to not wonder what they should do, but to show them an actual plan. And then to give them a team that can do it. And I you know, it's not me, that is like the reason that we're helping them. It's because basically, I found the right people and put them together in the right process, so that we're all working together. And so project managers that come from more established companies come to work with nd source, and then will work directly with entrepreneurs, pattern makers that have done all sorts of things for other brands now working indie source, same with sample makers, and so the people on our team are kind of like a on the reflection of the industry. Only we're, instead of working for big mega brands, we're shifting gears and working for the indie, the indie fashion entrepreneurs out there. And that's been fun to reestablish that focus. So cool,
Paul Zelizer 21:43
I think you're doing awesome. So let's do this, I want to unpack specifically how you work with people and the different services you offer. Before we do that, let's just do a quick break for our sponsor. But we're printers is a community sponsored podcast. And the way it works with the web printers community is if you've got a brand, that's about making positive impact in the world, we're here to help you grow. That can be everything from as simple. I was talking to one of our members recently about she needed a logo, some branding and website, people who work with these kinds of brands. We help people use do it Zach's doing today, learn how to get on podcasts and help find the right podcast and help get your message out there. It's called the podcast success team. With two LinkedIn pots where we help people who want to use LinkedIn to grow an impact oriented business, we have an Instagram pod that again, helps you learn how to use Instagram and grow your business, right? All with folks who are on a similar journey, and are incredibly supportive both on the interior like what's it like to be an entrepreneur with an idea about making the world a better place. And also on the outside? Here's the real world steps about how you grow a business and have the income and the lifestyle that you're looking for. So if you could use a little more support, reaching your impact goals and reaching your income goals, could check out the web printers community at aware printers.com forward slash community. And thank you to our printers for sponsoring this podcast. So Zack, let's talk a little bit about exactly what indie source does what you're talking about there. I think you might at the beginning is you were starting to describe it there. I think you might call that product development, right? Like exactly, I got the idea of a T shirt or like some pants that you know, have a pocket that holds the thing that keeps my heart going. And I know what it I know what we need. But I have never done pants or t shirt. I've never done anything in the fashion world before help. Who do I talk to indie sources name is likely to be on the short list of people that pop up fair to say, Yeah,
Zack Hurley 23:45
Yeah, I think so how does that work? So the first thing that we do is, because there's so many questions, and everybody's so different in what they want to create, we have what's called a kickoff meeting. And for folks that are like, you know, know what they want to make and are ready to get started, but they just like need that organization. We have them sit down for an hour with one of our brand consultants and we literally hash out the whole thing. We talk about every style that they want to do, what kind of fabric they are envisioning. Sometimes they'll bring in actual swatches of fabrics that they have to bring in reference samples. Right now we're doing everything virtually, and it's working totally fine. So they just like hold it up to the camera and show Oh, I love this stitching here. I love this fabric here. I like the print here. And we pull together things in reality that can help them to communicate what they want. Because remember, most of these people don't have fashion degrees. So we need a way to for them to communicate to us what it is they're trying to achieve in language and in physical products so that we know what that is. And so throughout the course of that meeting, we establish all of those things from a product perspective as well as the the price points that they want to be selling it and making it and all things related to their business. And at the end, the brands don't like really has a clear idea of Okay, this is what they want to make. And so from there, we put together like a whole, you know, statement of work for them. And, and we, you know, give them the quote for their product development and we begin the process, once we start that process, they work with a project manager, who I mentioned before, is an expert in the industry and does the actual source. So they source the trim the fabric labels, any other vendors that are needed, and bring them back to our clients and say, Here you go, you wanted these kinds of fabrics, well, these are the options we got for you. This is what we like about this one, this is what we like about this one. And this one's a little bit more expensive. But here's why you should maybe consider this one, right. And so we're transparent about our sourcing, which is another thing that's really important, because a lot of people just be like, Oh, your things done. So we want to give people their supply chain. So it's okay, this is coming from this fabric vendor. This is coming from this trim guy, this is coming from this place. And so I think it's important because part of we're trying to do is to like eliminate the, like that sketchy archaic structure where like, nobody knows what's going on. And so we build a supply chain with you. And we create all of the little aspects that need to be pulled together on the material side for
Paul Zelizer 26:09
how much how much do you guys talk about, like impact? And where things are sourced? Is that part of something that your regular, hey, if we get this fabric, here's our best sense of what that means for the environment, or the people who grow that cotton? And if we go with Ruby, here's our sense of that. Is that part of the conversation? You guys do?
Zack Hurley 26:30
Yeah, we have certain people on our team that have expertise in that, right. So we'll literally connect them with those consultants that are the best at that and can can communicate what that impact is, which is really, really cool. And then there's the obvious thing, which is that like, we basically only source domestically, so most of the stuff that we're that we're especially on the net side, most of the stuff is made in the US. So the impact you just know, right? Like, okay, it's not being shipped from somewhere far away. So there's different parts of the of the supply chain, where you can sort of dig in deeper, and then figure out what kind of what do you want to be able to measure? And then how do you want to tell that story and what what's important to you, and because of the way that we do it, where you just like you have this team around you, you can spend as much or as little time as you want in each area, until you get what you need. So that you feel like, Okay, this is the kind of fabric we want, because of these things. And then now we can move the pattern making and sample making.
Paul Zelizer 27:33
So you work on the product development, you customize that you get this fabulous team, I would imagine that I could be wrong. But I would imagine that let's say somebody works for pick your famous brand in fashion. And they're somebody who cares about what's happening in the planet. And they're like, Oh, you know, kind of like clothes. But boy, I know that in some ways this company I'm working for is part of the problem. And then they hear about any source, I'd imagine that there's a bunch of people who know what they're doing. They want to work for a company like you guys. Does that.
Zack Hurley 28:03
Yes. Yes. And we're hiring!
Paul Zelizer 28:06
Oh, you are? Oh, that's great to know. Cool.
Zack Hurley 28:09
Yeah, we've been hiring, we need more project managers, because again, we have more people that are looking to start clothing line. So it's, like, it's just a matter of finding the best people out there and putting them into our system and making sure that they have the tools to be successful and to help these brands get their product to market. So
Paul Zelizer 28:25
yeah, you get these great people who know what they're doing are, like really values aligned with what you're doing. And they know the industry and they sit down and Okay, you can do this for the collar, I mean, get this fabric for this product, maybe, you know, here's a couple choices. And here's the impact of doing it all this way. Right? And and then you actually come up with a plan to actually produce this thing talk about the production part of what in the source does.
Zack Hurley 28:49
Yeah, so then, you know, once the product is actually, you know, complete and approved and everything is all right, we made that sample and it's so important that you get that sample right before you go and produce multiple talk about that moment. Like
Paul Zelizer 29:03
when an entrepreneur actually has that first, you know, Rod crew got the his first t shirt, right?
Zack Hurley 29:08
Well, yes, it's the best especially because a lot of times we have people in our fitting room like physically they're so like, we've caught many aha moments on camera. We're like nice, like, you know, you see it, they see it for the first time. And they're like, wow, like, Oh, this like, this is actually the thing I've been thinking about for six years. And like now it's like, I'm wearing it. Like,
Paul Zelizer 29:26
That's got to be amazing!
Zack Hurley 29:28
Yeah, it's definitely one of the most gratifying parts of the sustainable fashion process. And especially because the teams there, right, like lawn are pattern maker who like, you know, she's engineering, the fit, it's super hard what she does, like, there's not too many people in the world that can do patterns at the level that she can. And so for her and for everybody, like, it's just so cool to have that we have on our Slack channel, we have a positive feedback. So anytime she's in a meeting and like, you know, a fitting goes great like she she always shares and the whole team celebrates because it's important that we have that like feedback loop.
Paul Zelizer 30:00
Nice. So you have this production cycle and you like get a trial. And then it's like, Okay, I'm ready to scale rokkor is ready to make that you know, that shirt. And one of the things that you do that's different is you don't go out and like put an order for 500,000. You can small batch things and do it in an iterative way. That's, I hadn't heard of that before.
Zack Hurley 30:23
Yeah, yeah, so we do it in pretty small batches. I mean, our minimum is usually around 300 pieces, but we break that down into different sizes and colors. So a lot of times you're talking about, like only 20 units to 30 units per skew per unique item. And so that puts brands in a position to have sub have a margin, but also like, you know, they don't have so much that they can't sell it, right, it's like a good, really good amount. And what we do is we, we run the whole production process, well get the fabric, do the marking, and grading, to cutting, sewing, printing, you know, trimming, folding, and packing, putting into that bag. A lot of our brands are like, you know, like, which is great, or like, you know, let's use a sustainable bag instead of a plastic bag. And so there's different things that they can pick and decide what they want to use for the packaging. And then yeah, and then we ship it to them or their distribution center. And then they, they typically most of our sustainable fashion brands are selling online. And so they're selling direct to consumer, which is really, really cool. And that's kind of like the third part of what we offered. So, you know, as time has gone on, and we've we reach out to our brands, Hey, how's it going? You selling products, and you know, another reorder, we just, you know, we noticed that a lot of brands do need support with marketing. And I did the same thing I didn't the other situations, I just pulled together the best people in the industry. And I brought them on, you know, under our roof to support with marketing is those other initiatives. And so now we've launched the marketing side, where we're helping brands with specifically building fashion websites, doing fashion, advertising on Facebook, Instagram, and doing photography, like literally across the hall from where we make the product.
Paul Zelizer 32:02
And that's the newest part of what you're doing at Indie Source, right?
Zack Hurley 32:06
Yep, we just launched the marketing side.
Paul Zelizer 32:08
From I had no idea, the first concept have been thinking of and fill in the blank to like, here's what it would look like to here's, you know, exactly this factory is going to make it with these fabrics. To then here's the website, and here's your strategy. Here's your pictures and your strategy to sell. It's pretty inclusive. Right? And how long have you guys been running?
Zack Hurley 32:29
Seven years?
Paul Zelizer 32:31
And over 500 entrepreneurs you've worked with in those seven years? Yeah. Nice. That's fabulous. So when you look at like, you know, compared to seven years ago, what's Yes, status of like, an impact or sustainable fashion entrepreneur? Like, have you moved the needle for somebody who's got an idea like this? Can they get things to market faster? Can they learn how to, you know, market more quickly? Are you seeing a increase in the number of folks who, you know, have, let's say, fabrics that are more sustainably produced? Or there's more business coming into factories in the US that do this work? Because apparently seven years like, like, yeah, some of the positive impacts of Sure. All this work over the past seven years?
Zack Hurley 33:22
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I've definitely seen more sustainable fabrics. And I've been pushing for those for a long time. Right. Like, I mean, but I was originally asking for more sustainable fabrics from our vendors. Like, it just didn't have anything. I mean,
Paul Zelizer 33:34
They look really funny, right?
Zack Hurley 33:38
You're kidding, right? Like, what is that? I don't know what I'm going to sell organic anything. Right. So yeah, I mean, that's been One really cool thing, because that's like, easily measurable like every, I would say every but many, many fabric vendors now have different sustainable options. And I think part of you know, now we can't make them. I'm not a mill. But ultimately, I think like us and all of my project managers constantly asking for it probably had an it has an impact over time. So and then, because we're like, hey, look, this is we want to buy
Paul Zelizer 34:09
500 companies want to buy stuff like this, right?
Zack Hurley 34:13
Yeah, exactly. So So I mean, that's been really, really cool. To see, I think, over the past seven years, things have just gotten easier in terms of the ability to market to your customer. I think Facebook advertising has gotten better in terms of its ability to reach the right person. I think that so Shopify has gotten much better in terms of their usability and ability to just run campaigns. And so all of the technologies that you need to be a direct consumer business has gotten better over the over the years. And so now plugging that into our ability to just work with entrepreneurs and speed up the process, you're never going to get away from the fear. I mean, there I'd be lying if I was like, Oh, yeah, just you know, just just like that, like, we're talking about humans and many humans who have never started a business before. So there's a lot of fear, there's often backpedaling, and oh, I don't know, if I want to do you know, there's tons of that normal human stuff that we have to deal with, with every single person, because they're solo fashion entrepreneurs, they're doing it themselves and trying to make a difference. So we're there to guide them and support them, and the end of the day that they have to take the jump themselves.
Paul Zelizer 35:24
What would you say? Certainly that fear is play, we could spend the whole hours talking about the fear of kind of making the leap as an entrepreneur, what would you say particularly somebody who has a fashion, and something that has positive impact intention to be more inclusive in the fashion idea, and I mean, in the fashion sector, they have their idea, but they've never done it before. And they're just like, right on the verge, okay, I'm listening to this podcast, and I know that I got an idea, but I've never done anything, and I'm going to need to spend time and money up front. And this is scary. And like, what would you say to somebody who's in that space?
Zack Hurley 36:06
Well, it's, especially if you know that you're going into it to make a positive difference. You like, that's like, gotta be your ammo all the way. Right? And you have to, like, use that kind of hunger and fire to get you through the different stages of potential like, scariness and fear. And so they're going to like, yeah, there's no business that's created about some level of risk, right? So there's going to be rescued as a product business. But I think the good advice that I can give you is that when you go into an industry that has been doing things a certain way, a long time, there's going to be people that tell you that you can't do something, like that's not how it works, or this isn't the way we do it here. Right? And my advice is just don't, that's not true, right? Like, you should listen to them. And you should hear them so that you know what current state is, Hey, this is current state, this is how it's done. But that is not how it needs to be. And so I encourage anybody that's sort of like, excited to get in to a new industry like, man like because when I started I was really young when I started this company so I people give in because most people in this industry are older. In the garment industry, the average age a little bit older, in the manufacturing side, at least right not on the front end side. And so that I got so much stuff I was grilled left and right by people saying Oh, you're not Who are you? You're not good enough. This is how it is. And you know, you just have to sort of like take it, enjoy it and move to the next thing. Alright, cool. Got it
Paul Zelizer 37:36
Reminds me a little bit of the publishing industry, right? Like the publishing industry is like, this is the way it's done for so long until the whole thing collapsed. Because now it's so disruptive that it's almost unrecognizable to what it was 10 or 20 years ago, it seems like actions, especially if it's already on a track.
Zack Hurley 37:54
It’s collapsing. It's Yeah,
Paul Zelizer 37:55
dude, it's like,
Zack Hurley 37:57
dude, the industry is collapsing. So don't let me tell you that it needs to be a certain way the thing isn't working, look at it, it's broken people or brands are going out into bankruptcy every five seconds.
Paul Zelizer 38:07
And it already was in a space of pretty significant disruption. And then like how could we have a conversation about the sustainable fashion industry without talking about what's happening right now between the combination of COVID-19 people like now working for home and you're not doing that business travel? So like in there maybe you know, can't do a wedding with 500 people in the same way so people you know, wouldn't go out necessarily buy that new drought like all these things have changed. Right?
Zack Hurley 38:34
Yep. different products are being sold at different rates. That's for sure.
Paul Zelizer 38:38
Yeah, so what how is that impacting indie source and the entrepreneurs who work with
Zack Hurley 38:44
it's different products are being sold so it doesn't doesn't matter to me because I'm trying to support people who want to make products that are needed, right? So I don't care whether we're making fancy dresses for going out or if it's like more something comfortable for staying in that regard. Right? So um, but I think Yeah, you're gonna have to as a brand consider the realities of what people are doing and what they want to buy.
Paul Zelizer 39:08
Most people are still wearing clothes, right? They're wearing clothes it's just a question
Zack Hurley 39:13
what are they gonna wear? What are they gonna
Paul Zelizer 39:15
wear and what I want again, before we hit the record button that we talked the values you know, in you reference the food industry not too long ago, we did an interview with Missy singer talking about women and food and both women growing food and women chefs and how people are thinking about food is has pretty significantly changed due to this crisis is this confluence of crises and what I heard you say even more before we hit the record button, is that how people are thinking just about everything but including the clothes they're wearing, it's like, it matters more in what you're wearing. You're not you're not out there, you know, going to the mall in the same way looking for that new pair of shoes. Or that new cool hat or those new pair of sneakers, you're thinking you're buying more online, because people aren't spending as much time in malls, and they're not shopping quite as much for entertainment. And now it's about values and what kind of world do I want to live in? And these really poignant times before I hit that, Buy Now button, I'm thinking about what does this mean? And do I feel a sense of connection to the why behind this product?
Zack Hurley 40:26
Yeah, I think so. I think especially since COVID, has happened that the shift is coming. It's so evident because it's literally the opposite, right? So nobody wants to see an influencer on an island anymore. Talk about how awesome they are and how they are, you know,
Paul Zelizer 40:40
here's my sports car. Right?
Zack Hurley 40:42
Right. like nobody wants to see that like, like, people want to back like, businesses and products, where they're like, know what's going on. And they're it. Yeah, I mean, look like just with the we talked about the mask that we did, like, right now, it's not about looking great. It's about being safe, feeling comfortable. And you know, that's about it right now. Actually, we
Paul Zelizer 41:05
didn't talk about the math. We talked about it before we hit record. Tell a story about what you guys are doing math.
Zack Hurley 41:11
Okay. So yeah, I mean, California was really early to shut down. And it was like, smacked in the face. Really? Oh my gosh, like, well, we had this close, like, how does this work? So yeah, we kind of very, very quickly pivoted to making reusable face masks. And this was so crazy, because I literally like I made this pivot. The same day, I walked into a Trader Joe's I kid you not. And nobody was wearing masks, like none of the employees not even like the guy at the counter. And I asked, I was like, how can you guys are wearing masks? And they were like, because the CDC said it's dangerous. That actually happened. And I was like, Oh, my God, this doesn't make sense. And of course, a week later, the CDC changed their mind. And then the whole mass thing happened. But it was like, it was early enough that I was just like, yeah, this is weird. Like, I'm just going to start making math because this doesn't make sense. This is going to have to change, like, you know, the answer
Paul Zelizer 42:08
really early to that and making them in the US and making them in a way that all the values like that. That's actually how we connected your PR person reached out and sold me this story. And I was like, that's really cool.
Zack Hurley 42:21
Yeah, so we like literally just used like, stock fabrics that we had. And you know, I already have my whole development team. So pattern maker to create a pattern for the mass, my sample team made the sample, my whole team that got together. And we we worked with a doctor that somebody new, and we're like, Hey, is this the right way? Like, would you want it to do what like, what should we make sure we don't leave out and like sort of collaborated with her on it, and put together a mask that was like woven, that had a pocket for a filter that had pleats on the side and you know, protected your chin and all that kind of stuff. And so we built this prototype, and just just wanted to practice what we preach it in terms of getting the market. So we were like, this is make a website. So we made a website, or we made a subsection of our website and put it on just started selling it. And it was insane. I mean, I don't know, we didn't really anticipate how crazy would be but I mean, there was there was no supply chain out of China. So again, back to that 2% thing, right? Remember, 98% isn't done here. So now you have 90%, you have 100% of the country that needs something from the 2%. Because we're the ones that are that have had access and ability to make it quickly. We weren't the only ones that did a lot of other manufacturers started making mask. But again, think about how much demand there was at that moment. We're only 2% I
Paul Zelizer 43:38
love that you're willing to iterate quickly. And you're, you know what it's like to bring this mindset. I'm like to joke our listeners know about my spiritual highlighter. So I'm gonna pull out my spiritual highlighter. So listeners, what you might notice is that Zach and his team have been thinking about the kind of impact source thing and they know that there's a certain segment of the clothing market that is thinking about these kind of things. And then when a situation comes along, like COVID-19, and hardly anybody's making masks in the US, first of all, I remember a time it was really hard to even get a mask even from China like, and you guys kind of like early on that you try this. You didn't like completely blow up your entire business model and stop doing the other things. But you're still to try this and what you saw is pretty quickly it got a lot of traction, you put some PR people on it again, we wouldn't be here. You told that story really well enough to land you on a podcast that gets like 300 pitches a week and we only do two episodes so as this was like a yes, we had never met before. And I heard that story and I'm like let's tell that story right. So there
44:49
we go. There you go.
Paul Zelizer 44:50
Boom, and you guys are off and running. And so you know listeners I just want to kind of make that visible of like what you know get to know a certain space get to that Understand what your values are and who shares those values, and then be Lean Startup one on one and then be willing to iterate right? And you guys have already been up and running. You're working with 500 entrepreneurs now, like you're brand new startup, but you're still willing to try some new things. Without like, putting every single ounce of energy into this one thing that you iterated quickly, and boom, that took off. And that brought you lots of other good things like more publicity for everything, that indie sources doing, not just selling a bunch of masks, right. So listen, I can't highlight that enough. What a fabulous example, Zack of what you're doing, but also how you're approaching doing impact businesses. In this kind of leader. Let's be let's know what our values are. But let's be flexible and try some things in terms of how we're showing up in the marketplace. And let's let the marketplace help inform where we go next. I can't recommend that enough, especially in these times of a lot of change. So Zack, anything you're thinking about, like, with this space, your seven years, you've been on kind of frontlines of things changing in this dinosaur industry? Like, what do you think about going forward with Indy source now?
Zack Hurley 46:11
Well, I want to be able to make more impact. And I want to do it thoughtfully. And so I think, like, one of the things that really sucks is when you build a brand, and you help them to, you know, come to life and market them and then they go to another manufacturer overseas because they're cheaper. That really, really stings. And but I don't want to just do that in the same way. Like I can manufacture I've manufactured overseas, we even started overseas. And so I'm thinking now about how can we implement the sort of values that we have here, but do it in a smart, sustainable way in countries, other countries, I'll give you an example. So right now, we have this great facility in Mexico, the closest country we can have next to us. And I'm in the process of getting them Fairtrade certified. Because that's really, really important. And I'm only going to be using that for brands that are in the United States. Um, that's very different, you know, then the conversation where we have, you know, we've a lot of Australian brands that will reach out to me and say, Hey, we want to produce it USA made. I'm like, why? Like, I get that, that sounds good. But I don't want to ship something to Australia from here. That's crazy. You know, what's not really crazy. It's what happens every day. And so I'm sort of thinking about supply chain in a new way. It's like, how can we do lean manufacturing, quick turn production, and create different hubs around the world that allow us to support not just like America, but like the world, I studied international business, I'm obsessed with international development and like helping communities, it doesn't matter what, what country they're from. And so I think that I'm probably going to be, we're going to be focusing a lot more on setting up different hubs, and also, just getting a little bit higher up on the supply chain, so that we can really know exactly what's going into each product that we make and being able to measure that. So I'm working with some of even our brands to figure out how do we measure what we're doing from an impact perspective on the fabric level? How do we measure different things on terms of the environment. So that's a goal for me and the more brands that we have that partner with us, the more we're able to do that, and make it extremely beneficial for everybody.
Paul Zelizer 48:31
Beautiful, thanks for being a leader in the ways that you're Zak. Like, I could hang out all day and talk to you, I wouldn't do that to you. And I wouldn't do that to our listeners, if there was something that you were hoping we'd get to in this topic of inclusion and sustainable fashion that we either haven't yet talked about, where you want to leave a couple of key ideas with our listeners, as we say goodbye. What would that be?
Zack Hurley 48:56
Oh, just take action. You know, I mean, the world just doesn't change on its own. It's not, if you can, I think, if anything, this experience of COVID has shown everybody like even the leaders of the world don't always know what's going on. Right? So we can't just let the leaders do their thing. We have to each be leaders in our own communities. And so if there's something you've been thinking about doing, or you're you have questions about, like, take, take action on that thing. Get started, get it to a validation point, talk to people get feedback, and, you know, put yourself in a position to really know whether the thing that you're making is a is a true need or just a perceived need. And then from there kind of validated that you can start to scale your business. Yeah, that's what I would say.
Paul Zelizer 49:40
So thanks for being on the show. It's been such an honor to have you here. Thank you for having me, Paul. So we'll put a link to all these great resources and some of the examples of products that are Instagram and lots of other good things. I want to say thank you everybody for listening. Before we go. Just a quick reminder, we now drop episodes twice a week, every week. Tuesday and Thursday, early in the morning about 5am. Eastern. If you have an idea we love listener suggested topics and guests. So if you have an idea, go to the aware of printers website and use our contact page and tell us what's your idea. For now I just want to say thank you for listening, please take really good care in these poignant times. Thank you for the positive impact you are working towards.