162 | Politics & Spirituality at the Crossroads with Nicole Lee
NOTE: This is a repost of episode 89. Given the chaotic US Presidential election is in full force, this topic feels more timely than ever. Thus this repost.
Our guest this week is Nicole Lee. Nicole is a Diversity, Equity & Inclusion expert, leadership coach, nationally known speaker and strategist who consults with non-profits, schools, businesses and movements.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
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Nicole Lee Awarepreneurs Interview
SPEAKERS
Paul Zelizer, Nicole Lee
Paul Zelizer 00:07
Hi, this is Paul Zelizer and welcome to another episode of The Awarepreneurs podcast. This podcast is all about the intersection of three things, conscious business, social impact, and awareness practices. Each episode, I do a deep dive interview with a thought leader in this intersection. Someone who already has market tested experience and is transforming many lives. Before I introduce today's guests and our topic, I have one favorite ask. If you could go over to iTunes or whatever app you're listening to the show on and do a rating and review. It helps people find us It helps our guests get their message out there. It helps people find the aware printers community it does all those good algorithm things sometimes we don't like algorithms, but in this case, we'd like them. Please help us by writing a rating and a review. We'd really appreciate it. So today, I'm really blessed today, you know, sometimes on your business, you know some people better than other people. It's all our guests are awesome. But today I feel really blessed to introduce you to do reintroduce you have somebody back on the show who's been here before somebody who I feel like I have a sense of her work in a up close and personal way. She's helped me in my business in some challenging moments, and even the aware of partners community when we've hit some challenging moments about diversity, equity and inclusion and some other issues as well. So I'm thrilled to introduce you to Nicole Lee. Our topic today is politics and spirituality at the crossroads. Nicole is a diversity, equity and inclusion expert, a leadership coach, a nationally known speaker, and a strategist who consults with nonprofits, schools, businesses and movements. And they were printer's co founder, thank you for being on the show again.
Nicole Lee 01:50
Thanks, Paul.
Paul Zelizer 01:52
So Nicole, I like to start every interview off with a question about how we're talking about spirituality and politics, right? That's always an interesting conversation. But right now it's a little more interesting than usual. Maybe we both wish it wasn't quite as interesting as it is or quite as a heated topic, resourcing yourself to show up you were going to get into this even on the front, you were in Ferguson, you're on the ground during you know, genocide and Africa, you've seen some things right? And evil being some things for decades. What's one practice that you personally use to help you stay resource hope you bring your best self to work in these really poignant situations day after day, week after week?
Nicole Lee 02:40
Yeah, that's a really great question. And I would say that the practices have changed over time, meaning I have had a lack of practice, I have had the wrong practice at the right time, or the right practice at the wrong time. Right. And so really, for me, it has been really grounded awareness. Right understanding not only like, what am I seeing around me, but what's going on inside of my body, right, and really honoring that, and not always trying to in the very beginning, especially as a human rights lawyer, I used to override, if you will, the sensations that I was feeling. So if I, if I was feeling fear, for example, you know, you have to stand your ground, if you will. And, and but yet, even if that is the choice one decides to make, you still have to stay aware, why are you shooting what you're feeling? Why, why is it that this moment, you know, for one moment, everything's fine next month, things have turned. So really practicing serious grounded awareness for me is essential, no matter what's going on. And when I'm, when I'm not on the front line, if you will, in my day to day life, I definitely give myself the gift of a daily ritual, a morning ritual, practicing gratitude. It really sets me up to be a much more productive and also a much, frankly, calmer and I'm pretty a type personality, but a calmer person in the face of things that are challenging or difficult. I spend most of my day talking with folks about some fairly serious problems, whether it is discrimination at the workplace, or problems that they're having with their kids around discrimination. And so really having a daily practice for me has been really important but when that is not available to me, always really attempting grounded awareness. Is this absolutely essential.
Paul Zelizer 04:53
So normally, I like to work with the guests to cut on Packer or travel with a guest to the candidate. travel a little bit about how you got here. And we're in this blessed situation where we've already done an interview, this is a secondary Nicole's back. So I'm gonna put a link to, you know, like, how'd you get here and your work as a human rights lawyer and fabulous stuff, but we've covered that ground. And this is such an important topic, I'm actually really grateful, because we can like go right to the things, right. And one of the things you and I have talked a lot about, and that you're really leaning in, in a big bold way, in a call is some of the dynamics in the spiritual world. And let's just like go, for example, you know, this little thing called spiritual bypassing. Let's just go, let's just go there, right? Like, there's some, there's some dynamics in the spirit, there's some dynamics in the spiritual world, I'm sorry, in the political world as well. And we're gonna go there too. But since we are aware of printers, and since there's been some pretty public disruption of spiritual business, as usual, let's start there. Talk to us a little bit about what have you seen over the past couple of years, were certain things that are really common in the spiritual world in terms of retreats and online events and things that were just like business as usual, suddenly, it's like, Whoa, that's not just not going to work anymore. And there's new norms and new conversations, talk to us a little bit, what are some of the problematic dynamics you're seeing? And what are some of those new conversations that are emerging in the spiritual spin?
Nicole Lee 06:32
No, it's really interesting, because we did talk in our in when we, when we did the last were pinners Podcast, where I was where I was a guest. We had kind of like an in depth conversation, almost like went through my resume. I don't remember though, and I mentioned it sometimes and not others. If I talked about, like my spiritual resume, if you will, like my spiritual background, and it's interesting for this particular conversation, because I actually come from the conservative evangelical church, that's what I was born into. So and I was born, my mother was a minister, that within the conservative evangelical church, my mother was a part of the backlash to feminism, she was fairly public, both spiritually and politically, the type of conservative values that many progressives see as leading to what we're seeing now, today, those were the things that were fostered in my home. And it was a transformation that actually to me was not as difficult as one would think. I think, frankly, I always knew that that did not suit me, that did not fit me. But when I was a teenager, politics became a part of my life. And so I was really clear. That spiritually, if you will, what I was seeing, or what I was hearing was not lining up with what had become really important to me, which was progressive politics. And so I come to spiritual work from a really my lenses being a part of a community that believed, right, or being born into community to believe they were doing such good, and that they missed it, they missed the point of so much of what they said they were trying to do, they wanted to bring values to back to the United States, for example, and yet they miss the values that are so important to humanity like equity. Right, justice, right. So much of that was missed. And so when I looked at the situation with spiritual bypassing, I find it to be, frankly, fascinating on some levels, and the same old, same old on other levels. So, so much of what we've seen, for example, begins with appropriation, right? So leveraging knowledge that we've taken from indigenous cultures, indigenous religions, indigenous spiritual practices, and leveraging our own privilege to use it for more than just honoring but monetization and sometimes really rabid frankly, monetization. That bypassing comes in when we're called upon those practices, right, are called upon as practices. What tends to happen is we say, Oh, well, anyone who's criticizing This is not in alignment, right? We start talking about resonance and alignment. And we start to say that those folks that have these criticisms can't possibly be as spiritual can't possibly be as pure as we are. What I found very interesting is that the uprisings, if you will, that we've seen politically and in social movements actually have carried right along with these uprisings we're seeing in the political in the spiritual movement, right. So as we see, particularly women of color, often queer women of color, standing up in the streets, saying, we're not going to deal with police brutality anymore. We're tired of it. maternal mortality in the United States for black women being at worse rates than what we're seeing in developing countries, we're tired of these social constructs. Those who are also in spiritual practice, are also being called to account as well. And a part of it, I, part of what I'm really excited about is we are seeing people of color, indigenous people in particular, whether those indigenous people be from indigenous to the United States are indigenous to Africa, indigenous to Australia, etc, and so forth. reclaiming what is there and bring to us from a spiritual sense, what Lindsey para often calls our original instructions, right of Lindsay, para is the head of an organization called the mystic society. And she talks about how we come to this planet with these original instructions. And yet, so often, when we don't honor the people who have a piece of it, right, so we all have a piece of spirituality when we don't honor people who have a piece of that, and we take it from them. And we use it for our own benefit. And we use it for not just our own financial benefits, but we also use it for our social clout and our class clout. And it becomes very destructive. And so this reclaiming, I think, is super important. And for me, as a person who, you know, spent a career in politics, but all also has always had a spiritual and intuitive sense. I mean, so much so that I turned my back on our religion and a practice that, frankly, did not suit me, for for others, many others. And what I'm seeing is that we have this opportunity now, to create space for both right to create space for both in our everyday lives. So longer are we talking about? Oh, yeah, I'm gonna go vote because that's important politically, oh, I'm going to go meditate, because that's good for my spiritual health. Actually voting and being civically minded is good for your spiritual health as well. And what is good for your political health, is to understand that this actually isn't just about rules and regulations and lots because we see how discrimination and racism and sexism can bypass and find their way, if you will, around rules and regulations. But this is actually about what do we value in our society, and in whatever spiritual form that takes for you.
Paul Zelizer 12:21
Nice. So we're seeing things like appropriation being named and sometimes called out, sometimes very publicly. We're seeing people looking at where did a teaching or where did the practice originate? And are the original instructions? I love that haven't heard that before? I've read about that. Because there's something there that sounds fascinating for me. The are we paying attention to whose instructions so to speak they were, we're also seeing people start to notice that these previously sort of siloing between politics and spirituality, like, some of the spiritual people are like, Oh, if we don't vote, then we get some things that we don't like. And maybe in the past, I've seen I've had people in spiritual community, I don't I don't vote like, you know, none of that matters. And now they're like, yeah, I better vote. are you voting? Right, right. We're seeing like concrete walls between those things starting to kind of come down. And we're seeing some political people saying, Oh, my God, I'm exhausted. What do I do? I know that I need some resourcing Not just that, like put food in my mouth and the quality of that food, but my soul hurts. And I need something in these really. So quite a number of dynamics, you just touched on there.
nicole lee 13:42
And if I told me one of the things that I find really interesting about some, some folks who are practicing spirituality, and don't see it, because it's not just voting, right? It's like, I don't see the point of protest. Right. So I, one person in particular said to me, I don't understand is that she's a spiritual seeking spiritual person. Why do you always use the term resistance? Right? resistance is antithetical to a spiritual life, right? It goes against the spiritual life. The one the first thing I said to her was that I actually, this is one of those moments where when I think of what we're talking about in another language, I realized how limited English language is around. Yeah, we're not we're not talking about not surrendering, right? We're actually talking about what does it mean, to stand for a righteous cause? Which all of our practices demand from us? I have not and I have traveled around the world and I have someone used to one of my colleagues used to say to me, you know, the reason why you practice human rights law is so you can go to religious ceremonies around the world. Like that's really all that you do when
Paul Zelizer 14:58
you go to sleep. Exactly, I see you posted like, dang, look where she is now. Right? You
Nicole Lee 15:04
know, and I and I and I have I have my sights on many, many more. And but you know, this whole notion that resistance is not a part of spirituality. And when I say resistance, I'm, I'm really talking about standing for that righteous cause of surrender, surrendering, right to the higher good, right? So sometimes surrender to the higher good means that you have to give up your privilege, right? And but we get around that by saying, Oh, no, I don't want to be in the streets. I don't want to be seen as a rabble rouser. Like that's not appropriate, I'm going to meditate this away. And what one is actually doing is you are actually relying upon the spiritual folks and the other folks who probably are actually in more vulnerable situations in this society than you are to do all the heavy lifting to do the spiritual work. And to be out in the streets during politics, is one example that I always give to folks is like, so so you know, spiritual people say, well, that's, you know, voting is really not my thing. I say, Well, it's interesting, because if you believe in progressive politics, then you must know that it's black women in churches, that are the ones not that just go out and vote themselves, but bring 10 of their friends with them. Right church vans are being used to take people to the polls, is a part of the ritual and the ceremony, if you will, of many, many, many, many, the majority of black church. Right. And so there's in some ways, like when we talk about original instructions for folks that are in diaspora, the African diaspora, for example, in the United States. I mean, there there is certainly so much that was taken away. But there are still some commonalities that you see. And you see that, that there isn't that bifurcation, and there's an understanding that standing for social justice has everything to do with your spiritual walk. And the last thing I'll say about this, just because this was an eye opener for me is when I moved to Haiti, I was learning Haitian Creole. I already spoke a good deal of French but I was learning Haitian Creole. And I kept getting so confused and conversations when they would talk about the law, because the law means law in Haitian Creole, and I knew that but it didn't make any sense to me. And Haitian Creole, Diwan means law. And it also means spirit. Right? So it's that perfect intersection, this understanding that spirituality and our civic duty and our politics are completely interconnected, whether or not we feel comfortable with it. Now,
Paul Zelizer 17:30
here in the US, we're coming into election season leading up to 2020. And we're also seeing something on the other side. So we were just talking about how in the spiritual worlds, things are not as I say, you know, the Iron Curtain between spirituality and politics isn't working anymore. In more conversation in the political realm about spirituality in the more progressive end, very obviously, as marine will, Marianne Williamson as a candidate, right, she's very openly talking about some concepts, that means stream spirituality in America and other developed countries have gotten a lot of attention. She's been a best seller Selling Author for something like 30 years now, writing a little bit about what's happening from the way that political people are starting. And then we also see this in the very, you know, regressive, conservative movements, like the one you were brought up in or some, you know, spiritual language as being partnered with certain political beliefs and encouragements to act and vote in certain ways. So talk to us like, what are you seeing from that angle?
Nicole Lee 18:43
Yeah. Well, I'm actually going to start with your last question first, because I find this to be so fascinating, having grown up in kind of the heyday, if you will of evangelicalism when Billy Graham and Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart and all these kind of household names, were, you know, we didn't have those many channels, may channels on television, as we do now. So usually, you would come across the televangelists, right? by flipping channel. We also you know, also you start the walk up to the channel. And that's a whole other thing is that sometimes you get stuck if you couldn't, if you if you didn't want to get up and turn the dial, you'd be stuck watching televangelists. But what's so important to me about that movement and watching that and then watching it now after I've left is there's no confusion about their spirituality and their politics. Now often I think that there's the spirituality that I'm seeing come in I'm not talking about every Christian I'm talking about the specific sect of Christians. Their spirituality has more to do with supremacy, if you will and domination. Right and and that that is quite concerning, but the understanding that to get people to move it must be both and it can't be either or. Right. So If a bill if the NRA wants to move a bill, right, they are not just appealing to gun to quote unquote gun owners on the facts. They're also talking values. And when we even when you hear people talk about values voters so often they're talking about conservatives as if progressive spiritual folks don't have values. And so some of this is about us reclaiming that space. And, and what has also led to the moment where we can even talk about reclaiming that space, is how much and I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm just going to be very honest with with the community on this, how much of what we relied on as progressive activists and progressive advocates, and politicians failed us. Right. And to me, we failed in 2016. Our polls failed us, right? Our get out to vote strategies are what you hear people talk about the geo TV strategy strategies. calculations were made that should have never been made, be pulled out of states that we shouldn't have pulled out of. But without any, like, really no rhyme or reason why it happened this way is this time, right now people are talking in, in social media as well is on television about how George George Bush, Oh, my gosh, sorry, Donald Trump. And his, according to our polls, any of the top five democrats will defeat him. But if we go back to the polls for 2016, it said the same thing. It said there was no way that Donald Trump could defeat Hillary Clinton. Right. And so all of our metrics, all of our tactics have failed us. And both activists advocates in the life and also just regular folks, we are experiencing what the rise of fascism looks like in the United States. And there's no mistaking it. It's not maybe the rise of fascism. It's not maybe, you know, we have a tenuous political situation. It's none of that we are in the middle of a rise of fascism. And yes, I have seen that before in other countries, which is why for me, I and I can't imagine for a lot of people why there'd be a question, but for me, there's no question. There's no question on what's happening. And we've had, we've been given enough information to understand how states are taken over by one party, even though they're still saying it's a democracy, you're targeting the most vulnerable populations in your country, then you go to targeting your political opponents, this administration has done all of that in a very short period of time. And so there are no easy answers. And often when there are no easy answers, people do turn back to again, those original instructions, what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be in community? What does it mean to be in a society that's crumbling? And if my facts are not enough, then Are there other principles for me to turn to? And that's where I'm seeing, you know, I have lobbyists joke to me all the time, how much time they're spending in church these days one, because there's not there's not enough work to do under these particular circumstances, because the Congress won't move anything. But also because they have, they're looking for answers elsewhere. And I think in the spiritual community as well, this is a real opportunity for those who see themselves as folks that have been immersed in spirituality, whether they be entrepreneurs, whether they be folks that are, frankly, running your yoga studios, this is a real opportunity to show some leadership. And I think that while while some folks are seeing that others are really afraid, because it's almost at the political people don't know what to do, how do I know what to do, but yet, that is really where we have to turn inwards. And that is to go back to that awareness and go back to our understanding of those original instructions in order to bring a different kind of leadership than what we're used to politically
Paul Zelizer 24:04
nice. As many of you know, who are listening to the show, if you've listened to any of these episodes before, you'll you'll know that my original tradition, shall we say is as a progressive Jew, and in our tradition, as literally raised on the words never again, that wasn't it wasn't a theory, like in second grade, or third grade, they were showing us, you know, bulldozers pushing bodies into mass graves, because we were told it was our generation that was going to be responsible to build a muscle of never again, and our young people right now organizing around the hashtag, never again is now never again is now and I think the right eye. You know, you said you don't think it's exaggerating. To say that we're in a slide to fascism never again, is most definitely now as somebody who is trained since the third grade or maybe right here. I can't remember, this is what fascism looks like, here's what you need to be on the lookout for. And here's what you do if it happens, there aren't too many people that have that baked into their DNA. I'm standing on a 5000 year old tradition. It's literally been, you know, part of my education for most of my life and all those signs are the Corvair check, check. Yep, here we are never again, it's now you know, so anyway, I just want to say that in this context, Nicole never again is now where we are seeing these dynamics happening and and you're you've got like a tree you've got one set of roots are happier roots are in this deep political, progressive activists, you're literally a human rights lawyer, go listen to the other episode, right? incredible amount of sophistication and training and law and organizing. And this other like half of your root stock is deep, multigenerational way back. Understanding that spirituality is a key, but it's an engaged embodied spirituality is like part of what a human is. And it's part of who we are as a human and part of what I have come to deeply respect and love about Yeah, right. In this time with these two rootstocks, your your work, the expression of your work, it's kind of like in three buckets, right? There's a there's a bucket that you do around coaching, there's a bucket where you do about speaking in events and being a leader in sort of an event context. And then you are putting on your own events. And I want to talk about each of those three, but
Nicole Lee 26:42
it definitely, Yeah, go ahead.
Paul Zelizer 26:44
Yeah, in this time, we're never again is now and your day, this kind of work, like, how do you? How do you think about the work that you do as a coach, as a speaker, as an event organizer in that context? Like why these three things? Why not be a human rights lawyer? Still, why not some other expression of your work? Why the we'll get into what they are, but why these three? And how so many people that I'm talking to who care about politics and spirituality are also like, but there's so much to do in his work my work like life would it looks like right now, is it enough? Am I missing something? Is this the right fit? Am I having the impact I want to have How the hell do you respond skillfully, when never again, is now?
Nicole Lee 27:33
I love that question. If you really transported me back to some experiences that I've had, and have me thinking about some relationships that I still maintain, from when I worked, gosh, and countries like Colombia, when I lived in Haiti, working in Kenya, working in southern Africa, I'm thinking about like, kind of the best of the best, the activist that worked under these sorts of never again, situations. So in Colombia, I worked with many indigenous and Afro Colombian organizations, and leaders who, frankly, were under death threats, many of whom that I knew and worked with, frankly, aren't even with us anymore, because they were murdered. They were killed because of their fight for freedom during the the civil war in Colombia, which at one point was the longest running civil war in the world. And Colombia had the highest rate of internally displaced people. And I would work in Colombia, and I would work with these activists and I work for them, and really got a very good view of how they work and how they processed. And, yes, they were there for these moments of just horrendous loss. And they thought strategically and politically, in work strategically and politically. And they also embrace their spirituality kind of like one foot after the other, walking forward, spiritual, political, spiritual, political. I saw that in Haiti, after the earthquake, where there was just such devastation, and there are people literally still bodies still in the rubble. And yet the folks that were leading the folks that were making sure not that the, you know, USC ID trucks got in or the, you know, the charitable trucks, but like, what did the communities really need to move forward? In the medium and the long term, the folks that walk that are walking a spiritual and a political path? And so what I know from, from the experiences that I've had, is that when you are doing the best work, you are not bifurcating, you're not saying I'm going to get spiritual next year after Trump is in an office, or I'm going to do politics when it's more in alignment with what I believe you're going to be there when it's the hardest. You're going to be there when it's not working. You're going to be there when you're tired. It's something that I know I've mentioned to you, Paul before, but I'll say here, how In some ways, disturbing it is to me that I'm hearing people say, Oh, it's just been so hard. And I've been on social media, and I said all the right things, and nothing is working, and I just need a break. Well, the thing is, in the midst of these never again moments, the break is, is what you find in the midst of the work. The break is what you find, in the midst of walking again, one step being spiritual, one step being political. During never getting moments, you actually don't get what we I guess, in Western society would consider a quote, unquote, break or a respite or retreat a few Well, we take our breaks, as we're walking hand in hand, and in tandem with the other folks in our community. So one of the things I'm telling people is if you are sitting on social media, and you're only doing your work in social media, I need you to not finish listen to the podcast, right? But then I needed to get out and I need you to go into your community. Because I can tell you if you're concerned about kids in cages, there's a situation in your community where kids are being exploited and abused, and most likely immigrant kids in your community. If you're concerned about police brutality, you don't have to look to Ferguson and Baltimore, go down to your suburban police station, and talk to them about, you know, how do you handle use of force here? If you're worried about gun violence? Well, golly, you don't have to look too far, thinking about how our children are being impacted, how traumatic it is that they have to hide under their desks and do all of these drills. There is work for us to do. Right. And a part of part of the relief is actually doing the work. I was just this morning, I was talking to someone who has been in the trenches for years. She does all sorts of really important work around sweatshop labor. And she's doing a lot of work around the folks from the poultry plant that were picked up by ice and have been detained. And she's an I've known, I've known her the entire time. I've known her she's been doing this work well over 20 years. And I said to her, how are you managing? And she says, I'm managing because I know I'm doing what I can do. Right? I am providing the political and advocacy side, I'm working on the material side, but I'm not doing anything I can't do. Meaning I am not sitting there wringing my hands on the things that I'm not able to accomplish. The not wringing her hands, is the spiritual grounding is the spiritual side, where you say, you know what I am enough. And while what I do for the one I am actually doing for the All right, I'm actually having that impact. I also know that there there needs to be a community level involvement as well. And so I need to find who my peers are, whether my peers are sitting next door, my neighbors, or they're across the country, I need to find my peers so that I don't let my ego Tell me, this is all about me.
Paul Zelizer 33:01
Thanks for that, Nicole. I just want to take a break for just a moment and thank our sponsors. And we're not like other podcast, we have hundreds of sponsors Nicole's one of them, I'm waterphone, with this fabulous community called the aware printers community as of today, when we're shooting, or we're taping this 319 people from all around the world who are being in community together. Yes, it's online. But it's a really powerful community. And we're doing things like sharing ideas. For websites, we're helping people think about, you know, where they can connect, and find opportunities to present. Somebody today was asking about they were looking for a coach that could help them with both a business and personal transition. We try to help people find the resources they need on a personal and business level to really thrive to connect to get their work out there in the world to have the impact that you want to have in your change oriented business. So go check it out. It's aware printers comm forward slash community. And if you have any questions, just go to the contact page. And let's talk Thank you everybody who's sponsoring us and allowing this conversation to happen. So Nicole, that is really pointed thank you for speaking to how you think about the work let's get into the specifics. Like I said, there's these three kind of buckets in the way you're doing your work on planet Earth right now in the most public version anyway. This coaching your your certainly how your work came to my attention. At one point we were joking that when somebody kind of hits the minefield can we call it if you're like a coach or spiritual leader, progressive leader and you hit the minefield of diversity, equity and inclusion. Oops, then Nicole's phone rings. Is that a fair way to describe it?
Nicole Lee 35:03
that's accurate.
Paul Zelizer 35:09
Talk to us about the coaching work you do. And it's not quite like traditional coactive, you've got a little work life balance oopsie help, right? We are a trained coach, but like, the way you coach and what you coach around might not be familiar to some people.
Nicole Lee 35:29
Well, it's interesting because as as things have evolved, my coaching has evolved. And I, you know, I've always held up until the last, I would say, couple years I've held close to the vest, the fact that I'm a coach, I'm a trained coach. I'm also an intuitive and I'm also clear, Cognizant, so I use those skills in my coaching, I would say fairly regularly. But that doesn't mean necessarily that that's something that my clients pick up on, necessarily. Sometimes Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. And what I mean by that is i'm, i'm able, through the coaching to know, ask those powerful questions that coaches ask and hold people accountable, and think strategically, with my clients, and also work in an advisory capacity, because I do have this background in strategic planning and diversity, inclusion, work life balance, like all the academic things, and I also pick up the feelings of others. And I also do understand that there is a higher power at work in my own work, and I and I have given permission for the higher power to use me, and the best way for my clients for their highest good. And what funny thing, though, that's happening lately is that I have had clients come to me and say, so I hear, though, that your coaching is definitely more intuitive coaching. So I just want that part, which is really interesting. And, you know, I'm happy, I'm happy to do that type of coaching. I always thought of my coaching as being quite cerebral, but that when I came into it, I was like, you know, this is because I have skills, not because I'm necessarily, you know, using my spirituality. So obviously, and now, on request, I use it much more obviously. And a lot of my clients are dealing with issues. They think first in their business around diversity inclusion. And sometimes I realize Actually, this is also in other parts of my life, it's in my personal life. And sometimes people come to me because they've made a big mistake, they said something they shouldn't have said, they've behaved in ways maybe they've fired people and realized that actually, they were relying on biases that they shouldn't have been relying on. Sometimes people come to me and say, hey, my child, my child did something or said something, I don't know how to handle it. And those are the things I work through with my one on one clients. And I personally find it to be extraordinarily rewarding, because for me, the how the work feeds me in because I think it's important for coaches to be clear on Okay, you're giving out a lot like how does that look for you in terms of your own balance? what it does for me is most of my clients are mirrors, if you will. Because while there's this belief that you know, oh, folks that do diversity inclusion, never struggled with those issues. Sure. I struggled with those issues as well, I had a lot of unlearning to do. As I said, I came from the conservative, evangelical church and a lot of unlearning myself to do and I also what I tell my clients as well, we all we have a lifetime of unlearning to do because we've grown up in a society that has allowed for such an equities. The other thing as well is that I love how it I love it when folks are able to make those really tough transformations, right? Where it's oftentimes especially around diversity inclusion, there's a lot of denial as to like how how we got to where we are. And then when folks click the people who are drawn to me and drawn to working with me, like those things, click in and we're able to do such wonderful work together. And I've just seen like tremendous transformations and folks, so the coaching part of my business is is really special to me, and I'm really glad that I stumbled upon coaching in this way.
Paul Zelizer 39:22
We'll put a link to Nicole's site and the coaching offerings there in the show notes. So don't be how do I get a hold of Nicole will will tell you her site and we'll put a link there. So don't stress about that. Speaking work, Nicole, you're a well known speaker here powerful speaker. I think people get a sense of that from this interview, like what kind of topics Do you tend to get asked to speak about what are the settings I mean, do you speak to like audiences of 10 people or 10,000 people give us some sense of that partier.
Nicole Lee 39:56
I kind of love them all. Um, I like speaking with small small groups. I do like interacting with people. And so that like facilitated talks, that interaction really appeals to me. A lot of what I've been doing lately has been around these intersections of equity, inclusion and justice, like, are we? So do we actually have a quote unquote small p political motivation here in the work? And yes, we do. It's justice, right? We're looking for justice, in our society and, and building a society where justice is at its foundation, we say in the United States. That's our foundation. We all know, that's not actually how things have worked ever. And so waking up to that, and realizing that is one step. I take the second step, if you will, in my talks about talking about what how do we do that? How do we do that on a personal level and interpersonal level and a societal level? And the other thing I've been talking about today is this idea of living an inclusive life. But what does it mean for us to attempt as individuals to impact our world first through our own inner work, our deep awareness around? where we come from how we grew up? What did we believe? And now Who do we want to be? And how do we impact our society and our families? I think the biggest crowd I've ever spoken to is around 5000. And in my, in my work as a human rights lawyer, it led me to run an organization called trans Africa, which was a fairly high profile human rights organization. And so I had to get used to, I'm a bit introverted, most people don't realize this about me, because I do a lot of talking. But um, I did have to get comfortable speaking to large audiences, I guess, if we count like mainstream media, I've spoken to more than 5000 people, but in person, about 5000 people. And those talks are often like more specific, relatable subjects on how we in our everyday lives, can work towards justice, how we stumble, how we fall, how we get back up.
Paul Zelizer 42:06
So in addition to speaking at events and call, you're also increasingly an event producer, for instance, you've got this fabulous event coming up this fall called accelerator 2019. And guess what the subtitle is the title of this episode politics and spirituality at the crossroads. Like how did you get interested in producing events and tell us about this particular event?
Nicole Lee 42:30
Well, it's interesting. So events, big events, conferences, that kind of thing. Were a big part of my life when I ran transafrika. And I was there for a decade. And so bringing celebrities, if you will, and powerful political people together to have serious conversations like that, that was definitely our bailiwick. And something that I, I'm pretty used to. And as an entrepreneur, it is not something that I actually had considered until very recently. And it's where I saw this gap. Right? Where is the place for spiritual folks to go to get really deep rooted political analysis, right. And with a quickness in a way, right, because some people have spent like, I just talking about my friend 20 years, right in the movement, that's a long time to develop an analysis or when I say political analysis and understanding of systems and how systems are working upon people. So not just Oh, individual mean, people, like folks like to say Trump is mean, and that may very well may be true. He's also a person that is using systems, they're already in place, that we're well poised to harm vulnerable people like Trump really didn't change much about the immigration system in order to bring us to this place, he literally knew which levers to push, and which executive orders to put out. So to send us to, from a situation where people could come in and be with their families in the country while they waited for asylum hearings to babies and cages with communicable really serious diseases like it, wasn't it, he didn't have to do so much. So the political analysis helps you understand how did we get here, right, and what can we do to undo it? So what was the place for that, and then also for the political folks, where was the place where they also can learn some of these principles of spirituality in a way that aligned with their values with a quickness. And I while I've heard about other gatherings and talk to other folks, this is such a pivotal time, I wish with guidance with the guidance from both spiritual folks in the in the natural but also with a lot of prayer and meditation, put this out into the world, this notion of an accelerator to bring together those groups of people and the folks that are in The middle, if you will. So this is not, if, if folks are looking for gatherings where perfect, people are going to come together and make perfect decisions, everything's going to be perfect. So we can all go back to just having nice Sunday brunches, with a nice breeze blowing by like, that's not this is not for you. But if you are a person that's in the trenches, and is also It feels like they're doing good work, and they want to do work, but they're also feeling weary. They're feeling like they need support. They're feeling like, Oh, my gosh, what if this happens, and he's elected again, like, this is the place for you, this is the place to have that conversation. This is not the place where we're going to tell you, it's all going to work out fine, because you know it, maybe it won't. But we need to work out fine. Meaning we need to stand in a way that is in integrity, where we're helping our neighbors, we're we're thinking strategically, politically, and we are grounded spiritually, we're going to be that difference. And so I'm just calling in and inviting in folks that want to have those difficult conversations, and to have them openly. It's also not a gathering, even though the speakers and the facilitators that are coming into this conversation are some of the most amazing people that I've had the pleasure of knowing and working with. And this also isn't a weekend where people are just going to talk at you. This is a weekend where we're going to talk together. And even though folks are facilitating the call, really is to begin the conversation and let's start getting into the nitty gritty. And for people to be able to say I don't really know what that means. Like I don't understand what you're saying when you're talking about alignment and resonance, or I don't understand what it means. When you're talking about how white privilege and white supremacy is impacting this or that system, like I don't understand it, this is a place to come to, to have those deep and conversate deep conversations, and also to forge relationships. And yes, I'm, you know, I'm all in the online world. So I totally get that a lot of our work is happening online. It is also good to sometimes in the flesh, be with people that are struggling, and also having victories in the same moment, that you are also having challenges, struggles and victories as well on these points. So I'm really excited and energized, I feel really privileged, even though like I said, like I've been doing events like high profile events for a while. And I actually this is this is my, my privilege and my honor to be able to put this out in the world and, you know, call in the people who want to make these sorts of changes into this space so we can have this conversation together and move forward together.
Paul Zelizer 47:40
When we talked about this event, not too long ago, Nicole, I told you the story, but I want to tell it to our listeners, some of you know, I recently have been doing these trips. I call them deep networking tours. So for instance, I was in San Francisco for two and a half weeks earlier this summer. And then I was in Southern California, I got to actually meet Sonali Fisk, who you mentioned before we know it all he is more awesome in person than you can even imagine online. And there's something about spending time together in a more spacious environment. We You know, this was one on one but I'm just speaking to, we broke bread together we we there was that sort of more spacious way of connecting that a 30 minute networking call or even an hour just doesn't allow over zoom, being in presence in this incredibly poignant time. I can't say enough of how I came home from those two trips. I am a trained human, you know, speaking with people and the other thing is the poet Robert Bly talks about, be careful who you show your goal to or for who you show your goal to. And in really poignant times, I think there's a little bit of like, people are, we're seeing polarization online is a great place if you want to get triggered and act like a jerk. Online is a great place to practice that muscle, right? So we're all kind of walking around a little bit on edge, right? We're sliding into fast, the world is burning, and we're like trying to like have meaningful conversations in a half hour zoom call, right and Nicole's and Paul's in Albuquerque, like that is not necessarily the place people are going to show you their gold. And one of the things that I found just speaking to the power of in person connection, in a more spacious face to face environment is that I went to Stanford and these are people I've some of them I've known literally for years. Spending, you know, four hours, six hours somebody I spent eight hours going for a walk and eat oysters and an oyster bar and then walk some more and talked in the car was an hour right up there and an hour back. We spent eight hours when we looked at our watches, we were like holy shit. We've just been hanging out for eight hours. Right? Right. And see In person in three and a half years, people showed me their gold. They showed me their gold, they talked about things that aren't online that they wouldn't talk about online, they wouldn't even talk even though we've known each other for years over zoom screen, and we got feet in the ocean oyster bar, going to MoMA, whatever we were doing having coffee sitting in the Korean, you know, restaurant eating seafood pancakes and breaking pancakes together. People showed me their goal. So So I just want to put a word in for what you're doing. Because, you know, in some ways, it's inconvenient. Yes, there's travel, right? Yes, there's like, Oh, God, I might not be sleeping in a place where I have like, all the things in my bedroom, because we tend to be maybe a little bit more on the sensitive side, a lot of us or like, what about the diet, and maybe I'm not gonna eat so well. And it's a pain in the ass to travel, and I have to get somebody to care for my dog or whatever, right. And, in these point, in times, if you really want to find out what somebody's gold is, or find a community where you can show your gold, I just want to say there's nothing like face to face. So thank you for being willing, it's not easy to organize events like these, me.
Nicole Lee 51:16
No, you know, it's, um, in this particular event, I'll just say, and I'll be vulnerable for a moment and say, what's been so interesting is in walking this political spiritual path, right, so one foot after the other in tandem, I have encountered things where really my guidance has said, Nope, that's not what you're supposed to be doing there. And I'm like, What do you mean, this makes perfect sense. Like, when I'm back, this is logical, this is the way we would do we would quote unquote, do
Paul Zelizer 51:47
things. The way it's done, right?
Nicole Lee 51:50
It's the way you know, why can't I Why can't I just or that and do this or that. And yet, when you are walking in that tandem, there is there is some tension, there is the learning and unlearning using tools. In another thing that Lindsey para is talks to me about is you know, so I have all these like hyper sacred masculine, some even toxic masculine, frankly, tools in my tool belt after being a lobbyist and working in DC, etc. And really drying out like that notion of like the quote, unquote, divine feminine and using these tools together. So not just always being the hammer, but also like figuring out, you know, what is the peacemaking way that provides space for folks, that, for me, has been a real learning and just when you think, Oh, yeah, I've got that down. Like, with events, things start to happen. You say, Oh, my gosh, wait, but I want it to look this way. And yet, what I found so far is that what is possible for this is greater than, frankly, my mind can make up and so I'm really privileged to kind of just go with this flow and surrender, right? And still still be a resistor, right? For what is right and what is true, but also surrender in the spiritual sense, this things that may not be necessary, or may even be blocks to, you know, the people who need to be in the room getting into the room. So it's been, it's been quite a journey. And so I'm being journey like I'm journeying, right along with everyone else, you know, don't let the the Human Rights accolades and all that fool you. Like I am also journey too. And the more honest, we can be about that, the more I believe we are going to start building the society that we want to see where people can actually be themselves.
Paul Zelizer 53:45
Nice. So what are the dates of the accelerator again,
Nicole Lee 53:49
so it's the 11th through the 13th. And it's in Washington, DC, and I can announce with your folks, it's actually going to be in a neighborhood called Tacoma in DC. It's Tacoma with a K, not a C. But it is a very old neighborhood in DC, that has have this progressive political ethos, as well as a spiritual ethos since its founding. And so again, like I could have, you know, I could have picked your K Street hotel and everybody so that's the way to do it. But yet, even the place that we are holding the accelerator is holding those two issues for us just right, right in its founding, the politics and the spirituality. So it's, it's really, it feels really aligned and really good.
Paul Zelizer 54:38
Nice. Again, we'll make sure to put a link to the accelerator and you can get all the details. Nicole, my little bell here has gone off and I don't want to cut this conversation. Cuz I love talking to you. And I want our guests to hear all your wisdom and I want to be respectful of your time. If there's something we didn't yet get to in this interview that you were really hoping we would? What would that be?
Nicole Lee 55:03
Um, you know, it's so it's so interesting, this just keeps coming up in my mind. So I'm just gonna read it, there is this Netflix documentary called the family. And I'm not sure that everyone has seen it, it didn't get a ton of ad space, but it's actually about a part of the conservative movement and how they impacted in interfered with our politics. And I find it to be just for people's knowledge base such an interesting thing to consider. Not so much to say, oh, Shame on them, but to say like, what is what is the sort of communities that we can build that has potentially even an opposite value structure or a very different value structure that can have an impact. And so that keeps coming to my mind. And the other thing is, I want to invite everybody who's listening to the inclusive life community on Facebook. It's actually a free community right now, where we are beginning to just have some conversations about what does it mean to build an inclusive life, along the issues of family, work and society. And so it's something you can join the only the only thing you have to do to join as you have to agree to I believe it's two or three questions that really just say that none of the trolling that you all are seeing out there is acceptable, we're going to have conversations, and we're going to have them respectfully, and we're going to learn and we're not, no one is required to teach you. But there will be people who who will have that bandwidth. And we'll we'll work with folks who have questions and have concerns and as things come up, you'll have an online virtual community behind you. So that's just the inclusive life community on Facebook. So I'd want to invite folks who, who are curious to join the fabulous
Paul Zelizer 56:49
community. I'm a member and honored to be so Nicole, thank you so much for being on the show today.
Nicole Lee 56:56
Thank you, Paul. Great to be with you.
Paul Zelizer 56:59
It's all the time we have for today's interview. Before we go, just a quick reminder and a thank you to the web printers community. Two fabulous place. These are pointing times you don't have to do it alone, seeing a lot of people try but it's not as much fun. takes a lot out of you to try to work on all these issues alone. And it's just not as much it's not effective. There's just too many things to know too many layers, too many issues. You know, the part of the wisdom tradition I come from is one of the tactics is called shock and awe right. That's what the Nazis talked about shock and awe right. And there's just like to keep things coming at you so fast and so intensely that you literally go into a freeze response not you know, metaphoric deer in the headlights but had literal deer in the headlights where you freeze. One of the big ways out of that from a neuro geek perspective is instead of fight or flight response is what's called the tend envy friend literally gets us out of that fight and flight when people are trying to pull shocking off. You have a strong community, you lean into each other you say, okay, you're working on gender work and sexism. Great, thank you so and so's working on this somebody is working on what's going on on our planet and the ecological levels. And we work as a community. It's the way we were wired as humans. And when we're in that wiring, we can breathe again, we can find our space and we can bring our best self to the piece of work that ours is to do and not have to go into freeze response about some of the things that's just not what we contend to in this moment. But somebody in our community does spend a godsend for me, and I think you all are a part of it. So for now, I just want to say thank you so much for the work you do